Mark Banyard: 0:09

Welcome to Kingdom talk, the podcast where we talk all about things kingdom. I'm your host, Mark Banyard, and I'll be interviewing a variety of people who through their lives and ministries have been committed to advancing the kingdom of God, church planters, church leaders, pioneers of missions and ministries both at home as well as abroad. So let's go straight to today's episode of Kingdom talk. My guest today is Pete Mahoney, Pete and I have been friends for some time. He is a missionary, a Bible teacher, a trusted prophetic voice, as well as an entrepreneur, and a businessman. Pete is originally from the United States, but he and his wife Hey, gay now live in Norway. Pete, welcome to the show.

Pete Mahoney: 1:08

Mark, great to be with you.

Mark Banyard: 1:11

Well, thanks for making the time. I know you're busy with many things. But I do appreciate you being a guest on our show today. And today, we're going to talk about the prophetic. Obviously, in order for us to talk about the prophetic, we need to understand it biblically. And we need to understand it historically. But I really do want to focus on where are we today with the prophetic in terms of how God's speaking what God's speaking? Who are the prophets today, who is speaking on behalf of God? And I think you carry some understanding and insight to that. And so that's, that's, that's what we're going to talk about today. What is the Prophetic? What is not necessarily a hard definition? But, you know, how do we to understand it?

Pete Mahoney: 2:02

You know, I'm from a very conservative background. So I didn't grow up with the prophetic. I didn't grow up with people speaking words of knowledge to people for encouragement and edification. And when I encountered that, for the first time in college, it just blew my mind. And it opened up my world and God in a whole different way. And it helped me experience the love of God in a different way. Not that I didn't experience before, I absolutely did in salvation and my understanding of God up to that point. But when I encountered the prophetic ministry, it was like Jesus reaching over and speaking to me, the voice of God. Yeah, like the reality of God. Now, that's what the prophetic is. And so it's bringing the Bible alive, like, in in church history right now, not contradicting the Word of God, never contradicting the Word of God. But making it alive for us today, and showing us - hey, go down this road now, like, in real time, because this is the way that God wants to grow you, or this is what he has for your family. And we need that if anyone's like, I just see this mercy like, God, thank you so much, that you still speak that you're, you're not silent, that this is actually a conversation that we're having, you know, the prayer is not just me speaking, but that God is actually going to respond, if I would take the time to listen. And you and I were just talking about this. It's like, oftentimes, we either don't take the time to listen. And I make a joke about myself that God often speaks to me through dreams, because I'm just too dull during the day - I'm doing, doing so much. I'm focused on things and when I'm finally able to quiet myself, because I'm dead asleep, then God will whisper me to me in the night, and mostly for me, it's a lot of times it's dreams. That's the prophetic for me. It's like right before waking up, I'll hear a word from the Lord. And it's different for every person, it's different in seasons of life, it's different how God speaks. And he'll test us in that, like, if we get comfortable in one area, he'll say, let's do some cross training, you know, you've kind of gotten used to this way. And we start to define God, by the way, that he's spoken to us in the past, that he just won't

Mark Banyard: 4:10

The voice of God, hearing the voice of God is so allow it. key to, to living I believe the Christian life. And, of course, first and foremost, it's the word of God, as God has revealed Himself to us, and the way of salvation, and reconciliation through through His Word, by the Holy Spirit. But then there's the prophetic voice, which is, God now dwells within us by His Holy Spirit and speaks to us. And so I like your definition because it means that you don't have to find somebody outside of yourself, necessarily to hear God's voice. You know, you think of those people who go to a fortune teller because the only way they can figure out where they're supposed to go or what they're supposed to do is through somebody else. But that brings me to the whole issue of the future, it seems to me like a lot of the prophetic or at least what people think of the prophetic is is talking about the predicting the future, or being very direct, have a directive voice that says, you need to do this, and you need to do that. And you need to walk in this and you need to walk in that. I think that hearing the voice of God, in terms of knowing God's love, His favor, is the relationship that we have with God is is is key to understanding the nature, the nature of the prophetic.

Pete Mahoney: 5:48

Yeah, absolutely. And I think there's nothing wrong with and as you were talking about, there's nothing wrong with are there prophetic voices out there who are speaking to the future? Can God speak about the future? Yes, obviously, he can. He has throughout Scripture. Does God speak about national issues? Yes, he can. He has throughout Scripture. We have an Old Testament view of prophecy, when we're in the New Testament now, doesn't mean that God isn't going to speak in the ways that he spoke to Old Testament prophets. But there are no national prophets in the same way that there was for Israel, as we had today. Today, we have prophecies that are tested by other prophets that are tested by other Christians just to weigh them out. There was nothing like that in the Old Testament. So it's, it's not just a thus saith the LORD, it's okay, you can say that, but then it's to be tested, it's to be weighed, where it wasn't before. So it's it's a different type of thing. And I think sometimes in charismatic circles we be, we make it out, like we have Old Testament prophets. We do not have Old Testament prophets. Again, that doesn't mean that people can't speak to the future, that God doesn't ever do that he does. But I think if you look at the definition and the revelation of God, in Ephesians, chapter four, and what the prophetic is about, it is not about that. God can use those things. But it's not about that. It's not about the overarching issues of governance, and governments and all of that; that can be useful to God's people at certain points, and he will warn us of things so we can prepare our families, etc. But if you look at Ephesians, chapter four, it's talking about apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, teachers, what? To build up the body, for unity, for maturity, and for the knowledge of God's Son. That's what it's about. That's what the prophetic is supposed to be about. So sometimes it depends on again, what camp you're from. I'm from very conservative. So I had to come into it like willy nilly, not knowing what the prophetic was about. Some people were raised more like maybe they were born straight into the Toronto Blessing or they're from Kansas City, they have a different view of it. Like where it's people standing on the platform and declaring things like, "This is your name. And this is where you're from, and this is what's happening." And that's the prophetic, too. But it doesn't always work that way. And there's times in the seasons where God does certain things. And I think, depending on what movement we're in, we can get hung up on the way in which God is going or not going to communicate a certain thing. When we miss the purpose, this is my Well, this I don't think it's my opinion, because I think this is what it's saying in Ephesians chapter four, that it's about the knowledge of God's Son. Scripture say that all of the riches of wisdom and knowledge are hidden in Christ. Amen. Oh, for looking for gold. That's where it is. It's not found in all of these other peripherals. Now God loves us and he's gonna give us kisses. He's gonna give us money when we need it. He's gonna give us everything that we need. And God loves to do that.

Mark Banyard: 8:53

Even a rebuke occasionally.

Pete Mahoney: 8:55

Oh, absolutely. Because he loves us. I was about to say that it's like secondary, that with all of those things, or I think we focus on the blessing, which is awesome. Like, I'm totally for blessing. But secondarily, the first blessing is to know Christ. That is the first blessing and he is an endless gift. You open up that present, you look at it, there's no bottom. I believe that's the revelation that God wants to bring to the prophetic today. He's all about his Son, the Holy Spirit is all about the Son. And they're pointing to him saying, "Church, look at the Son again, don't look at, it's not about you and your calling and all that - that's all secondary." And if we will focus on the Son, those things will come into right alignment, and we won't be worried about those things as much.

Mark Banyard: 9:40

That's right. I feel that and again, we kind of talked about this before the show today, that there is a restoration of the prophetic that's going on. I certainly felt that was one of the words talking about the voice of God that I felt that I received from the Lord at the end of 2022 for 2023. Of course, if there's going to be a restoration, it means there has been some decay or degradation or distraction or something. And so he's bringing us back into alignment with a correct understanding of the prophetic. And you already mentioned an Old Testament understanding as well as now talking about the focus being Jesus. So a couple of scripture verses for our listeners that might just again frame this: Amos three, verse seven says, surely the Sovereign Lord does nothing without revealing his present plan to his servants the prophets. And so that's the Old Testament. That's, that's true, it was true. And in perhaps in a sense, today, it's still true. However, Hebrews chapter one, verses one and two says this. In the past, God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways. But in these last days, he has spoken to us by his Son whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe. So to your point, here, here we have Old Testament, which we need to understand how God worked and how he spoke through his prophets. And But now, we're in an under a new covenant. And in that sense, New Testament where the focus is on Christ in us.

Pete Mahoney: 11:33

Absolutely. And you look at Revelation 910, or 1910, the Spirit of Prophecy is the testimony of Jesus. You know, so it's all pointing back to him. And I think to your point of restoration, I was listening to Mike Bickle, I think it was yesterday. And he talks about how often it personalities, you know, when we have personalities in the prophetic, and you you have to have the fear of the Lord. Because if you get on a roll with the prophetic, you can add on things he calls it, Hamburger Helper, meaning those things that aren't necessarily from the Lord, but you're so excited. And I think part of the restoration of the prophetic is having a fear of the Lord to not speak beyond the bounds of what you know, or you feel that the Lord is speaking to you. Because we're, we're always relaying these words with humility, knowing that we hear in part that we see in part, and we have to, I believe a New Testament prophet is to deliver it in that way. And in that spirit, not hesitantly, I'm not saying hesitantly or with unbelief, but with the humility knowing that it should be weighed, and it shouldn't be tested by those that here, and also that those who teach and I believe those that prophesy will be held account for what they teach and what they prophesied. And so you cannot have any manipulation in it. And that's where the, I believe in these coming days, the Lord is not going to put up with the manipulation. And I think those of you who have moved and prophetic circles and charismatic circles know what I'm talking about. It's very easy for people and leaders to slip into. I'm not saying they're always doing an on purpose, manipulation through the prophetic. And when you get, and especially when you get really accurate words, people really kind of make you into a celebrity. And there's a power associated with that, that usually doesn't go right. So I hope that this next generation that the Lord is raising up and people that need to be corrected by the Lord Himself that are already in prophetic ministry. This is not about us at all. It's not about us. It's not about our ministry. It's not an I know it sounds super holy and religious, or whatever it isn't. It isn't just a waste of time. It's it's very important to to resurrect, so to speak, the prophetic within the local church, where people are then challenged. That's the whole idea is that we're supposed to be training them to do the works of the ministry. So they're going to be hearing from the Lord. And we're going to be teaching each other Paul talks about you need to be teaching each other. And so it's not just this top down, okay, here's the Prophet. And of course, God raises up people with special prophetic giftings that are like, wow, you know, those prophetic voices throughout history that you're like, that's really crazy accurate, and they're in the meeting and like, boom, boom, boom. And there's something special about that, and exciting about that, and God uses that. But that's, that's a small percentage of the prophetic that God is using throughout the world. And I think most of it or I think most of it should be at that local church level. And I think now with social media and everything, everybody's excited about the next prophetic word, and this and that, and during the pandemic, it seemed like there was a lot of clunker prophetic, a lot of things that just weren't coming to pass. And it it brings shame on the name of the Lord. And I know people aren't trying to do that. But there needs to be accountability. Like if you get it wrong, you need to come back and say I got it wrong. We'll be Public Ministry that you're saying, this is the word of the Lord and that it doesn't come to pass. I think there needs to be at least a conversation and Humility is saying, I don't know how I missed it, but I missed it. And or maybe God has another way. Maybe it's a different interpretation, but at least to talk about it, and not just move on,

Mark Banyard: 15:18

Sweep it under the carpet.

Pete Mahoney: 15:20

Right. And that's part of the restoration, like, can't allow, if you get it wrong, and you know, you did you just need to say, I got it wrong. And it may be it's a repentance issue. And maybe it's just you just got it, you just missed it.

Mark Banyard: 15:37

Well, I think that if humility is in place, I mean, if it's real in the individual, then saying, I got it wrong is an easy thing. So it comes back to the whole issue of humility, you know, are and Do you understand that the gift, the prophetic gift actually belongs to Jesus and not to you, even though you steward it, and you have to end up being responsible for it. But I want to just talk about the critique of the prophetic because often, there's a pendulum swing. It's either it's all about the prophetic, and there's all these prophetic ministries. And and then when it seems like as you say, real clunkers and the bottom drops out, and certain people don't get elected after they've been prophesied that they're going to be elected and so on. The pendulum swings, particularly in the church, probably more in the church than in the world. And so the critique goes to the other side, where it's, we don't want the prophetic you can't trust the prophetic, there's no way of discerning what's right or what's wrong, and in the few people who seem to have these powerful gifts or are not really accountable to anybody and they're uncontrollable. And so we're just going to not, it's easier not to have that in our church. But I think the restoration that God is speaking about is, is him speaking value to the prophetic gift that He's given to the church?

Pete Mahoney: 17:07

Yeah, I think you're exactly right. And and you know, Mark, I'll just be honest with you, I'm one of the ones that gets in that mode, when just like, oh, so flaky, everything's so flaky and weird. And I'm just tired of the weird prophetic stuff. But I have to go back to the scriptures and say, what, what is the true prophetic? What does God want and go back to my own testimonies of how much God has broken through in my own life? Right? Strangers speaking the Word of God to me, friends. You know, whoever it is, it's, it's huge to be able to get that confirmation of things. You've been praying about you. You're praying in your prayer room, and then your friend calls and says, Hey, I really, I was on my heart that, that, you know, you needed healing in this area, or and it's exactly what you were just praying about. Does that bolster your faith? Yeah, obviously, it does. No kidding. Is that God? Yes. Do we need it? Absolutely. Again, going back to the point, it's mercy, and to then say, well, because there was sin on the worship team, let's just get rid of worship. No, we don't do that, do we? Because no, that would be silly. So we can't do that. That with the prophetic either. We can't say there was some conquerors there's some weird flaky people. There's, you know, it makes us feel weird, because we don't want to be associated with all that stuff. So we're just going to like, push it off to the side and despise prophecy. No, that's, that's the opposite of the Word of God. So it's the same thing with healing and everything else. Like, I've prayed for people, they don't get healed. Am I hugely disappointed? Yes. That's where the seed of unbelief comes in, is in disappointment. And it's human. It's natural. And it's something that God's actually been confronting me on this week, is you allow disappointment to get in and then the unbelief gets it. And when the unbelief gets in, yeah, it's hard to it's hard to have faith for those things that you once had faith for, to live in faith, for healing for the prophetic for, you know, to believe for your family, whatever it is, it doesn't have to be something super like charismatic. Just like normal Christianity, you get jaded and you feel like well, there's read my Bible and pray and like, do the next thing and you just don't have any expectation.

Mark Banyard: 19:16

Right? Right. Right. And that and disappointment is leads to that. Disappointment also comes from wrong expectations. When we believe that God can do the impossible in our lives, but then we put over it a template or we put a layer of our expectations of he's going to do it on a Wednesday. He's going to do it at 10:59 He's going to do it with a brand new car and he's going to do it with this and that the other thing and when he doesn't fulfill it and the way we think we end up with disappointment, then disappointment opens up the door. And unbelief ushers in.

Pete Mahoney: 19:57

Yeah, Lord, Lord, I'll do anything. I'll do your will, but do it this way. No, that's that's I think I will definitely say that's me on some occasions for sure.

Mark Banyard: 20:07

So let's talk a bit more about the prophetic in the church. It seems to me that there are a lot of ministries, prophetic ministries that have established themselves outside of the church. Now, that's that's to be argued, I mean, people could say, I go to a church, the pastor knows me, the board has released me, and so on and so forth. But the more and I do believe there are there are different spheres of the prophetic in the sense of an international platform, which, which is the privilege of God on a person's life. People are called to that to be an international voice in the national voice, and so on and so forth. But there's a tendency, I think, out there to think of the prophetic as something that's a resident primarily outside of the church, in that it functions that way in speaks kind of over and above the church in the destiny and purpose, the kingdom destiny and purpose of God that's on the church. And so I've noticed you probably have too particularly as an example, that during this last two, three years of pandemic, that there, there oddly seems to be more online, internet based social media based, niche market, prophetic ministries that have been launched. It's a bit like all the churches now that do live streaming, right? Like, I mean, how many churches can you attend on Sunday night, Sunday, I guess as many as there are in the internet, and how many screens you have and how good your internet bandwidth is. But I am concerned about the amount of voices that are out there now, just because the technology allows people to get on the internet and say whatever they want to say and and get it out there. I doesn't add up. I don't actually, you as I said, you can watch all that or listen to all of that. And it doesn't mean that it's all wrong, or or it's all bad. In fact, some of that stuff is real God stuff. Yep. But I think the problem is, and I'm asking you to, you know, to speak into this is that I think the problem is, is that is there, there's this notion, kind of underneath of all of this, that the prophetic is this free floating ministry that can kind of pop up anywhere it wants to. And it's not necessarily clearly in relationship with the, with the church, the Body of Christ.

Pete Mahoney: 22:54

Yeah, leadership within the church is supposed to be about safety, and kindness and direction and shepherding. And unfortunately, people have had bad experiences with that. And I think especially prophetic people tend to be more, you know, I don't know if this is true, more, more free spirited or more that way, and so they tend to buck a little bit against that, and perhaps that's natural to them, or whatever, but, and then we've had, maybe they've had bad experiences with controlling pastors, etc, etc. But again, it goes back to the whole thing, just because you have a bad experience does not mean that that's the way in which God made things. So in a healthy body of Christ, you're going to have good leadership, that loves the people, that's releasing that's not controlling, that wants to see God use each individual and them as a body. And I think, a really healthy place for that prophetic person would be in a local church because there the main thing that they can do there is their job, which is to equip the saints for the work of the ministry that is their their role within the body of Christ. Now certainly it's not just the local church, it's it's trans local church as you say, it's it's worldwide it can be depending on the ministry that the person has, but you're gonna have so much more I believe satisfaction and wholeness in the Lord in your ministry, being sent out, being commissioned by a people that have surrounded you that love you, that support you, but also can correct you, which is really needed, that you're not independent. And if it's about unity, which again, is going back to the Ephesians chapter four, if it's about unity and maturity, that you aren't unified, and no one's tracking your maturity because that's the role of a pastor right as well is to shepherd and bring up in maturity. You're not out of that. You know, we're all maturing. We're not we haven't reached into the head yet, right. We've, we, we see in In a glass dimly still, so humility says we all still need to grow, even the greatest prophetic person, if they really were prophetic, they would know they need to grow. Because they would be meeting with the Lord. And anytime you meet with the Lord, you know that you need to grow. Because you're you, you have that sense of holiness and fear the Lord like, gosh, I can't believe I even get to be around God, I can't believe that God speaks to me, like he really shouldn't be. Because I'm, I'm kind of a dork and why is he speaking to me? I think that that's sort of the, you know, not in a self defeating way. But to say I need help, I need to be in a family, I need to be in a community is the best way. And there's going to be serving this wonderful group of people. Or maybe they're, you know, they're all really difficult people. That's true in the church, too. But they're going to be helped by having that prophetic voice within that community, and that voice is going to be helped by them.

Mark Banyard: 25:53

So let's talk about healthy churches and what a healthy prophetic ministry might look like.

Pete Mahoney: 26:01

Yeah, I think that the starting place is to have a central focus on Well, obviously, first commandment, I think, first commandment first of people that know that our job, firstly is not to do something for the Lord, but just to love him to honor Him to be focused on Him and that our life is about him. Right? To Love the Lord your God with your whole heart, soul, mind and strength like that. That's the main thing. And that it really is, and that we're constantly challenging each other to say, like, first commandment first, like, let's get back to the basics. Let's never give that up. Because if we get if we ever get past that, what's the point? We've lost it, we've just completely lost it. But that's the anchor. The absolutely the foundation of everything is Christ. And if you build on anything else, then the whole thing just collapses. And that was Paul's whole message. Like, you can't build on anything but this foundation, this is it, right? You got to do this or it's, it's gonna burn down and it's not going to be good. And, and Christ himself saying that, you know, you can either build on the sand or you can build on a rock, your choice, but one is going to turn out great and one's not. And if the church is built on Christ, who is of course, the foundation, he's the he's the cornerstone, and he's the capstone of the whole deal, then that's going to be a safe place where you're gonna like, Okay, we're on the right track, at least, you know, we're going to screw up, we're going to have weak faith. But Jesus says, Hey, if you just have the faith of a mustard seed, I love that. Awesome, God, I'm glad that you're saying that. Because I feel like my faith is very much a little like a mustard seed, but you're accepting me. So it's having a vibe like that within the church, while also saying, hey, we need to know the Scriptures. We need to be anchored in the scriptures together. So that church is going to be teaching the Bible, not necessarily expository every week or something, depending on the group, but or that we can't do themes, and it has to be straight through the Bible. I'm not saying that, although that's a good thing. I think I think we need more expository teaching, especially those of us who are more in charismatic circles, I think we really need expository teaching. Because what it does is it forces us to teach all of the Bible, we like to skip parts. And expository teaching, we have to like, we're gonna go through Colossians, you know, we're gonna go through the whole thing, every verse, that's really helpful. I'm not saying that's the only way that you're supposed to teach. But that helps challenge the teachers, it helps challenge the congregation to say what does the word of God really say? And then the prophetic and all these other things can be anchored to not our knowledge, necessarily of Scripture, but the overarching message of the Bible. We know it. It's hidden in our heart, because we memorize Scripture even. And then how are we going to know if it's God speaking to us if we don't know the word of God, right? How do we test it? How do we, if the prophetic is supposed to be tested, which it says it is in the Scripture? How would you know to test it if you don't know the Scripture? So I know this is all basic. But I've found many times people don't know, they don't know the Scripture. So they they get prophetic words, and it's just like, it's crazy stuff. And it's not good. Like, you need to just drop that thing and like run away from it. But you wouldn't know that because you don't know what the word of God says on on those topics or subjects or who Jesus is or getting mixture, you know, about Christ not being the only way or, you know, different things about sexual ethics. And the people just don't know anymore. They don't know what God says about things and why marriage is the way that God wants it and you know, gender things and all these things that are popping up in the world. Now. We don't know the answers to them because we haven't been studying the Scripture. So that's where I feel like there's that anchor there for the prophetic because if you don't, if you don't know the Scriptures, it's not exciting, either. If God speaks to us something, he's going to be speaking it from his heart and his heart is all over the scriptures. Like, all over. We have the written word of God, we have the living Word of God in Christ, where we have both of those accessible to us. And it gets exciting when God speaks something to your heart that you're like, oh, that's, that's Bible, like that feels right. To me that feels like I'm on the right path. And you wouldn't know that thing that popped into your head is a Bible verse unless you knew that Bible verse. I'm not saying that God can't do a miracle, but he's digging out of things that are in us most of the time. And if we don't have those things in us, those things are not accessible in the same way that they would be. And so having a church that's like, we're not going that direction, if the Word of God is opposed to it. And it's not about sin management, and what what can we do and what can't we do. And that's not the focus, but those things certainly are important. Secondarily, because we love God, we love Jesus, we want to serve Him, we believe that he's smart, and he knows exactly what would be best for us. And so, and we're not, we don't think that we know better than Jesus about how to live our lives, and how to raise our families and all of that, like, we believe that we should really look into that. It's like, I think if you have Christians who are you know, you even have a Christian who's a doctor, like they've studied for years for the profession, but they don't study the Word of God, which is far more important than those things that they studied in school. And I'm not like heaping condemnation on that person. But just to say that the scriptures are the most important thing that we can read. And we can know. And this is what I'm trying to teach my children, what you've taught your children. Like, it's not just a book. It's, it's a revelation. It's a revealing, it's an unveiling of a person who is Jesus to us. First hidden as a mystery, by a seed of Abraham all the way to us. And that, if you didn't know what that means, because you haven't read your Bible, you don't know why I'm so excited to even bring up that seed from Abraham. That was deposited as a gonna be a huge revelation to all humanity. It's not just for the Jews, but this Messiah, this king, he's gonna be for everybody. He's gonna save everyone. And, yeah, so it's that sort of thing, like, first commandment first work centered on the Scriptures. And then we have a community that believes that God is wanting to build up his people that it's not, it's not the CEO pastor mentality where the pastor is going to do everything. And everybody's just looking to Him to do everything, or to the elders to do everything. But they're there to serve the congregation, to train and the congregation will actually be the ones who are doing the majority of the ministry. It's very, very rare. It's very rare. I've only seen it in a few places. But is that not the biblical model that God wants? I believe, so.

Mark Banyard: 32:53

I couldn't agree more. It's almost turning the church inside out and backwards to align it with a biblical picture.

Pete Mahoney: 33:03

That's right. And I, you know, you hate to say things like this, but it's not. There's certain things that are like are biblical, they're like not they're not not biblical, but they're not in the Bible, either. They're not they're not bad. There's things that we have that aren't even in the Scripture, like there is no such thing as a senior pastor, the way that we understand senior pastor does not exist. And I'm not against senior pastors, and there could be a place for that within them. And, and especially in the context of some people have are in full time ministry, they get paid actually to study the Word of God. And that is biblical, to set yourself aside to study the Word of God and to prayer. So I'm not against senior pastor, but just to say that the mentality of the senior pastor in the States, especially who is the CEO, who is in charge of everything, all of those things, that is not biblical, it's not good for the congregation. It's not good for the pastor. And there has to be a shared leadership, there was not a single church that Paul planted that didn't have multiple leaders, it was elders, plural. And there's a reason for that. And I think those that are in a situation where they have to lead the whole thing themselves are really robbing themselves and the people and I'm not blaming them for that. I'm just saying that there is I think there is a better way.

Mark Banyard: 34:22

Yes, I couldn't agree more, I think to that. So let's just, let's just review here. So a healthy a healthy church is a church that is reading their Bibles, they're preaching, preaching the Word, both Old Testament and New Testament with an understanding of the day that we live in rather than yesterday that that we don't live in, might be trying to live in. We need to live in a New Covenant understanding. And then on top of that, we need to have leadership that have a five fold perspective that the gifts that they've been given is actually for the sake of raising up the body. And so, in in that context, let's talk a little bit about what the differences are between a people that are prophetic and people who are prophets. Today.

Pete Mahoney: 35:23

The titles, the titles, I feel like I get hung up on I think people get hung up on them like whether that be apostle or prophet. And we can we can have a discussion about what what does the New Testament mean by Apostle? Did they mean capital A apostle? Do they mean small a apostle too, you know, is there is a difference between Old Testament prophets and new testament prophets. So there's a lot of nuances there. And I think those of us from an evangelical background, we want to check out those other things and say, We don't know what that means. So let's just push it off to the side, we understand evangelists, teacher and pastor. For those other roles were like, I think roll roll is really what we need to focus on, not title. And I'm not saying you're saying anything about title. But it's been helpful for me in my understanding, to not focus on the title that we would give someone but the role in which they have within the church that is recognized by the body without there needing even to be a title.

Mark Banyard: 36:16

So we're really talking about callings, anointings and giftings that recognize, are recognized by the body of Christ.

Pete Mahoney: 36:24

Yeah, they see it because it's activated, and it's moving. And I think those you know, you know, an evangelist when you meet one, right, because they're, they're always talking about

Mark Banyard: 36:35

You want to get everybody saved all the time!

Pete Mahoney: 36:37

Absolutely. And that's their job. That's God has put that on their heart, they're burning for that. And you're gonna have the person that maybe will, let's say, functionally functions in the prophetic as in the role of a prophet in that way, is going to be used to bring right alignment to the church, meaning what is God? What is God saying, in this hour? And how are we out of alignment with God's purposes and God's design? And how do we come back to his purposes? So I believe that again, I'm hesitant to use the title Prophet, because that gets into some things. But let's just say those that are gifted in the prophetic in that way, they are not only going to be giving because the gift of prophecy, I believe is for you know, edification, comfort, strengthening, and that's going to be a more wide gift within the body of Christ, where everybody, I believe that I believe it's God's desire. And Paul says this, that everybody would, you know, move in the prophetic, and you should desire the greater gifts, especially prophecy. So there's something there, you know, there's something there that God wants to bring and something that's important for the whole body. But I do think and I don't know, there's not a lot of talk in the New Testament about what it what the role of a prophet is in the New Testament. But I would see it as again, right alignment, what's on God's heart, the prophets all about what God thinks and what God wants. And realigning. saying, Okay, we're off here, we need to go back to what God said or what God is doing. It's not up and and if it's done, right, the prophet does not bring focus on him or herself. But on what the Lord is saying and doing. And they're almost like they're in the shadow, you know, they come out when when Lord needs to speak something, which is to be tested by other leaders in the body and other people who have prophetic giftings. And, yeah, so I don't know if that answered the question. But I feel like that's maybe the differences. That one is a little more it can bring correction. I believe that God still uses the prophetic for correction. But I think that that's not the same as the it is prophetic. But it's not the gift of prophecy as in the edification, comfort, but but correction is edification I bet can be it can be that. So anyways, I don't know if that's a good way of speaking about it. But that's how that's my current understanding of, of what the role would be as far as if it's we're talking five fold, what would the role of a prophet be? It would be to bring right alignment? That was what I would say.

Mark Banyard: 39:17

If it was a simple thing, then it would be easy to answer, but we tend to oversimplify things that are difficult to explain, at least the way that I understand what you've just said, the role of the Prophet today in the church is not an Old Testament picture anymore. No, it is a prophetic voice. That is the gift of Jesus. It's the ministry of Jesus that is given to the church and through individuals in the church. I think, to some degree, I think we've already established that everybody who has the Spirit of God can hear the voice of God and therefore God can speak to them. And if God's if they're listening, and God says, No, speak this word to somebody else or to the church, then they are moving prophetically in a sense. So, so back to the question. So are there are there prophets today?

Pete Mahoney: 40:17

Absolutely. And I think that if you were to pin me down and say, Oh, are there prophets today? Yes, there are, I think there are because the Bible says so and yay,

Mark Banyard: 40:27

all right, we finally agreed on something!

Pete Mahoney: 40:30

You can interpret, obviously, Ephesians four in many ways and say, okay, the foundation was the apostles and prophets, meaning those guys back then. But I do believe it is those guys back then. But I think it is more than that. There could be some theological rate of wranglings of what exactly all of that means? But I think definitely, I mean, and there are people that are gifted in special ways, and some people call them seers. I don't know if that's a biblical term or not, I haven't really looked into it. But I understand what they mean by a seer. It's those that God uses in a very special way. Or he takes them into dreams and visions and visitations from the Lord that most people just do not have. And it's nothing that they earn. It's nothing that many of them ask for. And it's something that they've had since they were a kid, it's a gifting and a calling of God. Some of them have used it well, and some of them have burned out and gotten into sin, because it's a lot of revelation and power there. Right? So is that person a prophet? I'd say, yeah, they are. That doesn't mean that the guy at the local church isn't either. But again, I personally, and maybe this is a cop out. If someone calls me a Prophet, I'm like, Okay, fine, like, okay, maybe I don't know. But I would never call myself one. I do feel like I move in the prophetic, just speaking personally. And I, I bring things to right alignment as the Lord directs me to do so. And I encourage people to move in the prophetic. So maybe that does that make me a prophet? I don't I don't know. I don't know how you would determine that I think it's more about the gifting and calling it just do it. Whatever it is, just do it. I think we need to stop worrying about - and I'm not saying that you're saying that, worrying about titles. But that let's just do it. And I think that those things are recognized by the congregation, those things are recognized by the people of God, who say, Yes, I recognize the function of God, I recognize the gifting of God, and they're able to honor that person in a proper way, not in a like I'm bowing down to you sort of situation, because they're just like everybody else. And it's actually I wouldn't wish that upon myself unless the Lord forced me to do it. The massive responsibility it would be to speak a word of the Lord. It's a very different accountability level. If the Lord appears before you and speaks to you, then if you're kind of have a prophetic moment, you know, in your mind, I believe there's a higher accountability, right?

Mark Banyard: 42:57

Well, I'm going to be intentionally provocative here and and say, if, if all you could think of being a teacher is like being given a stick, and being a prophet is by being given a loaded gun? Don't you think that you would be more concerned about the person with the loaded gun than the person with the stick? So coming back to the whole issue of accountability in the prophetic there, you know, you're prophetic, I'm prophetic. You know, other people get to decide that but over time, we have some experience of this and history of this and witness to this and the body of Christ. So we know how dangerous the prophetic can be. Because people are reckless, maybe unintentionally, or they're too casual about it, or they've they've gotten the word from the Lord but but haven't been released to say it, but they said it anyway. And I'm still thinking about healthy churches and healthy prophetic ministries, is saying, in order if there's going to be a restoration of the prophetic, surely, there needs to be a restoration in leaders.

Pete Mahoney: 44:17

I think you're right, in that what you said about the stick and the loaded gun, right. And oftentimes young, especially young people, because they need to be raised up in the Lord, like all of us need to be raised up in the Lord are continuing to be that people get shoved onto a stage way too early. People in worship ministry it's the same thing. Like it's not just playing an instrument, you are before the Lord and you're leading people into worship. There needs to be a high level of holiness, of course in all of our lives, but if you're if you're a worship leader, you need to - it's demanded of you that there's accountability in your life because you're leading people into the throneroom of God in worship. How much more would the prophetic gifting where it can be used for manipulation for your own purposes, for glory to you, that you as a 20-something, you know, are using that gifting, and it just gets weird. And there's no one there to guide you and shepherd you, not to shut you down. But again, those that are worried about being shut down, I often find, yeah, aren't really interested in growth. I'm not saying that as a universal principle. But people that complain, I'm being shut down all the time. Like, if it's the word of the Lord, it won't ever get shut down, eventually, it will come out and it will bear fruit. Even if the leader shuts it down. That's the leader that God has appointed over you. So there's a time and a place and you that word will come forth, if it is the word of the Lord, and you need to be patient. But that's hard. And you have to learn that over time that even if people put their foot in the door that was supposed to be opened or whatever was happening. If God wants something, he's gonna get to that destination, I have stories in my life that I tell for fun, because it's there's no way that anybody believe how it happened, that was appointed to be at a certain place at a certain time. Everything happened to say, No, you're not going to do that. And then I ended up there anyways, through random circumstances and dreams. You ended up in the exact spot. Love those moments. Yeah, so it's like, but you don't know that when you're younger in the faith, or you're you're younger, in ministry. And I, you know, I don't believe that I have this huge experience in ministry, but I have what experience I do have, you have to learn that you don't have to push it. You don't have to push it forward. If it's God, you can wait. Because if it is the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit is hot, let's say on a meeting, and you just want to close that thing out, and you're getting in the flesh, and you're going to do that thing when God that's not what God wants. God wants to rest on the people, he's going to do a work, and maybe it's going to happen tomorrow. And maybe it is going to happen right now. Maybe that is the Lord. But sometimes the flesh comes in and we want to sort of speak close the deal in a moment, whether that be evangelistically, whether that be prophetically or as you said, we hear something from the Lord. And we're just excited, and we want to say it. But it's not always time to say that. And I've realized now in my life, like there's things that I've told people about what the Lord has told me that I shouldn't have, you know, that was just for me. And not like it was the end of the world or anything. But you look back and think that was not for anybody but me and I should have just savored that between me and the Lord. And you know, some people within the church, they don't like the prophetic. And, you know, I'm a very conservative theological guy. But you know, I get criticism, people criticize the prophetic movement, and many times rightly so. It's like, we've already got enough darts coming in. Let's not do more stupid stuff to make it worse for everybody, you know, and have accountability.

Mark Banyard: 48:02

So we're talking about fivefold ministry, which is the grace gift that's given to everybody, but to some, the gift of apostle to some prophets, some, so we're talking about and teach you're pastor and Evangelist, but it's to the church. And so first thing is, again, back to review. What we're really saying is the Prophetic is a gift that is given to some, but it's for the church, it's for raising up the church. So all that to say, coming back to the question of authority, it's really about, one, leaders understanding that whatever gift and calling they've got, it's to raise up the body in the fivefold, right? And it's also about loving the people. I'm thinking about, you said that earlier. I just pulled it up on my screen here. I'm referring to First Peter chapter five verses two to five, Peter's letter to to the elders who was, you know, just really encouraging them to be carers and lovers of the flock. You know, he says in verse two to shepherd the flock that's among you actually exercising oversight, not compulsion, but willingly be willing to serve the body as God would have you not for shameful gain are eagerly verse three, not domineering over those who are in charge, but being examples to the flock. And when the chief Shepherd appears, verse four, you will receive the unfading Crown of Glory. So all that to say is that I think at the heart of all of this is accountability. That comes from the top down in this case, and because there's only one head of the church that I know about, and it's, it's Jesus, He is the head of the church, not the pastors, not the teachers, not the prophets, not the apostles and not the evangelists. They're actually not the head of the church. And there's got to be that accountability in that calling, so that the body of Christ becomes the focus of the fivefold and for us to see the prophetic restored.

Pete Mahoney: 50:19

The last 500 years, right, we had the Protestant Reformation, which brought an incredible revelation back to the church, that justification by faith that brought so much freedom to the church at that point, not a perfect movement, right. The Reformation was not perfect, but one of the main tenets of the Reformation that was there, but I don't think ever really took or didn't take in the way that I believe that the Lord wants it is the priesthood of all believers. And that's what I really believe is the Lord's heart for the local church. And no, I know, I'm preaching to the choir here for everybody that's listening, probably, but priesthood of all believers, as a tenet of the Reformation, I believe, was absolutely from the Lord. And I don't see that it has really taken root in the church, but that the Lord wants to restore that to the church in this day. And really, that they will be a people that not just say it, but when you're around them, you know that it really isn't about them, that they really just love Jesus, and that they would do anything for him. And they don't care about money, like they need money to live and support their family and to travel when they need to, but they don't care about money like to, they say, it's really true that my faith tested is worth more than gold, that they actually believe that they don't just if it's a Bible verse, they believe that they literally believe it, that it's worth more than gold. I think that is where God is today. That's where He's taking me. I believe that's where he's taking the church. And it's definitely not easy. And I don't have all the answers. And I've been asking the Lord like, because I think it's really on God's heart. How do you do church? I think a lot of people are asking this question, especially after the pandemic, because they realize like, what is church like, we haven't been meeting? And really, it hasn't changed that much. We're still doing worship, we still have preaching. So then what, what is the what is church? That is the question of the hour. And people need to ask that question. And it's a scary question. Because we have a lot of systems and things built up that we've never questioned. And it's scary to question it and say, maybe this isn't the way we should actually do church, maybe it should be a little bit different and have a different focus. And that's what I've been thinking a lot about. It does scare me, because I don't want to be the one to start a church like that, you know, to really break the boundaries and and think about what what is the Lord saying in this hour. And I think there's a lot of different expressions of the church worldwide. I don't think it's one thing that the church is one thing. God's heart is one thing, but the expression and the function of the church and how it operates in Japan, I believe it should be different than how it operates in in America, there are different countries and different cultures, and God has a way and a purpose in how he's going to. That's why I believe that the New Testament doesn't talk a lot about how to do church. I think it's because the Holy Spirit can teach us there are there are boundaries, like there needs to be elders needs to be accountability needs to be proper leadership, there needs to be people leading and pastor, you know, pastoral people, you know, etc, etc. And there's other things, baptism, etc. But that, within that, that framework, there's a lot of room to see what God could do. And that's a part of how God wants to reach nations and peoples and and I'll just say, it is scary. It's like poking at something. And God is poking at something saying, Oh, maybe this isn't the way that we should be doing church. And we're like, we've always done it this way. And it's easier this way. And I don't know what to do learn. He's like, exactly, you don't know what to do. So just admit that you don't know what to do. And maybe I could come in, and we could, we could do something.

Mark Banyard: 54:03

Last year, God spoke to me, Oh, I don't know, maybe in the fall 2022 and gave me two questions to ask people, which I thought was interesting. He didn't give me the answers. He said, Ask, ask people these two questions and the questions. were number one, what does the reset church look like? And number two, what does a reset leader look like? And my understanding is the questions are about the hard reset that we've gone through. I believe that God's been part of this hard reset, and I'm going to stop short of saying he made it all happen, but he certainly used it to to shake us up and he starts with his house first. And I think to come out of what has been a very, very difficult and challenging time and not be changed would be tragic. But what does a reset church look like it? What does a reset leadership look like? And that's exactly what you've just said is that is that do we need to allow the Holy Spirit, not try to come up with creative, entrepreneurial kind of new and fresh boutique niche, ways of doing church, you know, all curated for a new generation. But it's about Holy Spirit, bringing us back to bring us into alignment, bring us in to restore our fortune so that we might dream again, bring us to that place where we are more aligned with your heart and mind and expressing who you are through the body of Christ than we've ever been before. And I think that yes, I absolutely agree with you. And I'm excited for that. I think it'll be hugely challenging, stretching, kind of frightening. But as long as we keep our eyes on the Lord, I think why would we go back? Why? You know, there's the old saying the trouble was with normal as it only gets worse, why would we go back to normal? Look, we have run out of time today. Thank you so much for being a guest on our show. I think we barely touched the tip of the iceberg here in talking about What is the Prophetic today, and so, yeah, let's, hopefully later in the year, maybe we can meet again and talk. This has been a great conversation. And so thank you. I'm wondering if just before we say goodbye, if you would mind praying, and particularly for our listeners who have been stirred by our conversation, I think perhaps we might have raised more questions than given the answers. But if you could pray for those who are listening, and who are hungry and thirsty, to hear the voice of God, and to allow God to move in and through their lives for his glory.

Pete Mahoney: 57:02

Lord, we thank you so much for this conversation. I just ask in your name, that those that are listening, that they hear that word mercy, and they say, Oh, God, I need mercy right now I need so much mercy. Lord, you give mercy to those who ask and I just pray in Your name. Those that need the mercy of the prophetic today would receive it or by your work, would receive it by picking up their Bible and opening it they'd receive it Lord by a direct word from your heart to theirs. And they would just receive that mercy and say, Oh, thank you, God, I'm on the right track or thank you God, I'm I'm not on the right track, and you're pushing me back to focus on Christ. I also ask the Lord, for those that are listening. Maybe they're pastors, maybe they're church leaders, who get stirred when I'm talking about this change in the church? And maybe it's maybe it's like, I don't know if I like this. Or maybe it's yes, I love this either way, Lord, I don't know I'm not you. But I just ask you if you would come right now, with your spirit, and bring encouragement and bring conviction and most of all, Lord, I pray for courage. I pray for courage for those that have been feeling that tap on the back of the Holy Spirit saying, Okay, let's try this a different way. Let's do this a different way. And it's just been hard for you to say, oh, gosh, how is this going to work? I pray Lord, you give wisdom and courage to those listening to say yes, let's let's gather the leaders together and say, Let's wipe the table. Lord, we're just pushing everything off the table and saying, what do you want God for this church? What do you want for this local church? What do you want for this people? We're going to organize it function in the way you want us to function so I pray these things in your name, Lord, amen.

Mark Banyard: 58:42

Amen. Amen. And that's our show for today. Thanks for listening. We hope you enjoyed this episode of Kingdom talk. You can find all the notes and links for today's show at our website, WWW dot Kingdom advance ministries.com forward slash podcast. And once again, if you enjoyed our show, be sure to subscribe so that you won't miss any of our upcoming episodes. Bye for now, and may God bless you.