[0:00] Music. 
 
 [0:09] Welcome to Kingdom talk the podcast where we talk all about things Kingdom, I'm your host Mark Banyard and I'll be interviewing a variety of people who through their lives and Ministries have been committed to advancing the kingdom of God. 
 Church Planters church leaders pioneers of missions and Ministries both at home as well as abroad so let's go straight to today's episode of Kingdom talk. 
 
 [0:37] Music. 
 
 [0:49] My guest today is Tony Kim. Along with his wife Jessica, they lead Renaissance International Church in Bakersfield California.  They have a passion and a vision to see family strengthened and cities transformed and Nations disciple, by raising up everyday revivalists and reformers to impact their world also Tony leads Roar Collective. Relationally base movement of leaders of all spheres to transform their world and influence culture through Revival and Reformation. 
 And finally Tony serves as the executive director of harvest International Ministry. 
 He travels around the world equipping an activating the church to engage and transform their world. 
 
 [1:44] Tony Kim welcome to the show. 

Thank you Mark great to be on here with you and always I always have a great time chatting with you. 
 
 

Well thank you so much we so appreciate you taking your time with us today and I'm really looking forward to our conversation this morning, Tony. Kingdom Talk, our podcast is about all things Kingdom and to get the ball rolling here today why don't you begin by telling us a little bit about how you came to Faith In Jesus and how that has transformed your life. 
 
[2:21] Well since this podcast is three hours long that's perfect. It’s quite you know a long story short I grew up in a household parents are immigrants, and my father was born in Hiroshima in fact he's a Hiroshima bomb Survivor, my mother was born in the northern part of Korea during the Korean war, her family escaped the Northern regime, you know she lost her father during that time, he was killed by the northern regime but they were able to escape and so with that said, I grew up Buddhist Shinto and you know doing a lot of ancestral worship and my mom got ill. 
 And doctors didn't know what to do and long story short she went to, a meeting that she was invited to with by her friend and she was miraculously healed, there gave her life to the Lord, and that began really our journey with Jesus but I didn't get saved until I was about 13 years old when I had an encounter with the Lord at a place called Prayer Mountain up in Mount Hermon right outside of Santa Cruz inside the Santa Cruz mountains I should say. 
 
 [3:36] Just tell us a little bit about that experience. 

So leading up to it I was in a lot of gangs, gang activity, running the streets, drugs, alcohol at a very young age unfortunately and so I was about to drop out of junior high school and, one of the Miracles that took place is I graduated eighth grade there was pretty much bets that I would drop out a high before I graduate at E3. 
 Really and so we laugh about that now but my mom sent me guys of course a place called Youth Camp. 
 And and this Youth Camp was three nights four days, and I didn't know where we were going I really didn't want to go but my mom in her Authority as a mother forced me to go, and it ended up being a three night for day fasting and prayer Retreat for the Youth. 
 
[4:33] And the first night I had a dream that I was preaching that I said Over My Dead Body I'm going to be preaching. 
 The second night I had another dream and in the dream people were walking out of wheelchairs and just wild stuff the things of the Kingdom. 
 And I woke up and those two dreams haunted me and finally the afternoon. 
 I said God if you're real and I just started talking to God as if he was real. 
 
 [5:03] And Jesus walked into the room and let you know I'll let just say I was completely wrecked. 
 
 [5:12] Transformed of course I'd process that I had to walk through afterwards but my Encounter With Jesus immediately just, was absolutely life-transforming from Spirit on out and really with bumps in. 
 
 

I find that people who have dramatic conversion experiences as they go through life they may have lots of challenges as you say but they never doubt their salvation because that, that moment was so real real and so powerful absolutely. 

You know I mean that's a great way to put it Mark you know I actually never thought about that honestly you know people say I wish I had a dramatic encounter or salvation experience like you but the reality is I just want to remind all of us and the person that's listening, that every Encounter With Jesus no matter how the experience or the processes of Salvation the end goal is meeting Jesus, and so it's my traumatic process or the person assisting your process you know some people say I didn't have a history like yours well thank God anyone can do stupid things. 
 
[6:38] You know like me but the real fruit of the whole, encounter or substation project process is Jesus himself and so I believe every salvation experience is powerful and dramatic even though it may not feel or sense that way. 
 
 [6:57] Yes yes amen so your do you said you were 13 at that moment was that about the Hur 

I was 13 literally. The Retreat always every year ended up around my birthday over the days of my birthday so, it was 13 14 years of the end of my 13th beginning of my 14th year 

It really was in in a real both spiritual and natural way of saving moment for you.

 
 Yeah yeah yes it really was really was the turnaround that's right I would I would not be alive today. 
 If I did not have that encounter you know at that moment most likely. 
 
[7:44] Amen praise the lord well Tony Fast Track us. I mean you're a senior pastor. 
 In a church and Bakersfield California Renaissance International, and so but you didn't get there overnight so you're 13, 14 you have this this experience of Jesus you put your faith and trust in him for the Forgiveness of your sins. 
 What happened in between. 
 
 [8:11] What do you mean I didn't become a senior pastor overnight? It was a long process in my encounter I knew that God was calling me into full-time vocational Ministry. 
 Now I never had a heart for full-time vocational Ministry to be honest with you I still struggle with it, because there's other passions that I feel and I still told God I think I could serve you and be a lot more effective if I was in this Arena or if I did that for you but, of course God knowing all things he says otherwise and I don't do what. 
 Passionate about but I submit my passions I serve and follow his ways and so I struggled with that for years. 
 
 [8:57] And so when, I became when I was 17 18 years old near the end of my senior year my church recognized the the call on my life and so they hired me as an interim youth director, working alongside the youth pastor and so forth we saw tremendous tremendous just the things of the Lord you know and it was a conservative church but yet we saw the power of the Holy Spirit fall young people were being baptized in the Holy Spirit speaking in tongues we saw Miracles deliverances which was very unusual for the denomination that I was a part of and it was a great denomination and I thank God for that because they grounded me in the word well I was having all these experiences they really taught me, the love for the word and how to study interpreted exegete the word rightly and so thank God for that. 
 And so that's really about it's both/and rather than either/or. 

Yeah absolutely that's right you know I we tell people don't we Mark that you need two wings to fly. 
 I need the word and the spirit. 
 
[10:07] Amen yep 

And and so that led me into this journey of what we call you know vocational Ministry. 
 And so I went from that denomination into another denomination to help plant a church into another denomination to help plan a church into another denomination of Planet church and this is all in the northern California Bay Area, add you know I'll so young when they would say what's your theology I would say what. [10:37] What do you mean Theology and I really didn't understand and but they love that I could build. 
 And they love that I could gather and so the recognize that and I was able to serve in different denominations that that's when I saw the beauty of the different facets of the body of Christ and of course none of us are perfect no movements, but the sesa tea for the need for one another that the Presbyterians need the Methodist a Methodist need the Baptist the baptism means that you know Pentecostal charismatic sand and those were the denomination that I was all a part of. 
 In serving them and that launched me really into, that's how we got into Ministry was going to Bible College at the same time trying to be excellent in this field at crafting you know a sermons and what it means to be a minister and also Genesis of it. 
 
 [11:32] So when did you go from. 
 If I can say serving another man's Ministry to being called to lead. 
 
 

You know Mark I think for me personally being a part of Generation X. 
 One of the things that I find myself in is an in-between generation we have the Boomers and much of the focus now are on the Millennials and gen Z. 
 And and rightly so, but yet Generation X I find myself in the middle in somewhat lost as a generation but with that said my understanding is this that is a Generation X we're called to serve the previous generation. 
 And we're called the mother and father the Next Generation. [12:23] And so with that understanding to be a bridge of the generations I'm still serving another person's Vineyard while God has given me my own. 
 
 [12:33] And and so I'm my wife and I lead Renaissance International which is our local church together we have a movement called Roar Collective which is, a group of global leaders from my generation on down that have a heart for Revival around for me Reformation to see transformation, for the purpose of really discipling Nations hmm and not also so that's my Vineyard and we have Roar Academy its are equipping arm that's in the Nations as well, and so that's the vineyard that God's given to us to Steward into lead primarily but then on the other side of the coin. 
 I'm also serving as the vice president of harvest International Ministry which is under who I would call my spiritual father. 
 Really he's been like a real dad to me so I could drop the spiritual element and just call him Dad okay okay. 
 Because he's really taking that role in my life for the last 25 years it's so I'm serving as vice president for Harvest International Ministry, and those two are not dichotomize and there's no tension because one serving the other and the other serving want and and so really it's in the Oneness of the generations working together, that I see really the power of the Kingdom be manifested in today's culture. 
 
 [13:56] Let's talk about the kingdom I've shared this before with other guests on the show but years ago when I was a local church pastor I came across a book by John Wimber called Power evangelism and I couldn't put that book down it was just incredible, but what I got out of it was a revelation of the kingdom of God. 
 So here I am I've been to Seminary I was already pastoring a church a congregation but I had no concept of the Kingdom that book was the beginning it wasn't the end but it was the beginning of a kingdom, Consciousness a revelation not just thinking Kingdom but a real revelation of the Kingdom, can you tell me a little bit or share with our listeners today what was there did you just come into an understanding of Kingdom things, or was it a gradual process was a was a like-minded it did something just open up your understanding to it and of course, tell us what your understanding of the kingdom is. 
 
 

Absolutely well the kingdom to me is really the domain of the king so there's no Kingdom without the king so it's really about the king of the Kingdom. 
 And wherever the king is becomes his domain. [15:16] And it's his place of rulership it's his place of authority and and so I think we could all agree on that and a macro level, so to me just in a simple definition that's what the kingdom is to me. 
 And the kingdom is within us because the Holy Spirit lives within us. 
 And so for me everywhere I go I bring the kingdom with me which is really the Revelation that John Wimber brought to our generation, right that's pop that's the Paradigm Shift we call the back of the 80s right that that we Holy Spirit was leading us into now, when it comes to understanding Mark I think I'm doing I'm going to be vulnerable here I'm still trying to understand the kingdom, are we all and so I don't know if you know we're getting a little more as time goes on in terms of understanding it but for me, more than understanding it you know I experienced at first and then later on found a language for it. 
 
 [16:18] For example when I got saved you know that afternoon and I know there's no no person on the planet could deter me or persuade me that Jesus is not real. 
 And because that encounter and that's the beauty of encounters isn't it. 
 So I went to my youth pastor and I told him he knew immediately that something changed and I told them I saw Jesus and he said you did because your face is glowing. 
 And he didn't mean it from a spiritual sense but he was he meant it from a tangible physical you know me looking at you you looking at me and so. 
 I was hearing one another so forth but hours later my youth pastor came to me and said hey why don't you follow me and we walk into a room. 
 And this is the first time I could say I experienced a manifestation of the kingdom and it was a girl in a wheelchair she was paraplegic. 
 And he said Tony you saw Jesus you had these dreams, people walking out of wheelchairs he said let's pray for this girl to see what happens right and and so I looked at him I said how do I pray. 
 And he led me through a process and the funny thing about this Mark is this I found out later just a few months before that Retreat he took this course called MC 510. [17:47] Which was a signs and wonders course by John Wimber and Peter Wagner. The pastor he snuck in without anyone knowing I found this out later on so we laugh about it now but with that said he led me through the steps of how to heal which is really power evangelism. 
 The four steps of healing. 
 And he led me through that and after we prayed I laid hands on her and I felt what I know now as the anointing. 
 For the presence of God and the girl walked she stood up and began walking. [18:27] And we freaked out. 
 
 [18:31] And we were in shock my youth pastor looked at me I looked at him and I said it worked and he said it worked so and none of us were expecting this, and that's what I knew that everything Jesus did in the Bible were called to do today, and that began really my Pursuit and really my love for the things of the Kingdom. 
 And you know the prophetic Dimension and you know the different things of the Kingdom I didn't have again have language until I went to this place called The Vineyard Church, when I was 19 years old and I again I didn't have language I didn't know the books were around really I started dabbling in it a little bit and they said oh that's called the prophetic oh no that's called miracles now that's a sign and a Wonder, and they would teach me the difference between a miracle sign in the Wonder and healing and gave me understanding to it and so I think I thank God for the vineyard movement. 
 And thank God for all that he's doing he's done and I believe still will do through that movement and so that's how I came into a greater understanding. 
 Wonderful. 
 So signs wonders and miracles have been part of your experience of believing in Christ and. 
 His kingdom right from the get-go for you is that is that right we could say that yes. 
 
 [20:01] And I still don't get it and you still don't get it 

I still don't get it, we'll call that a holy naivete I like it a lot it kind of Keeps Us in awe and wonder and keeps us a little bit safe rather than it's just a formula or recipe, that's right when it's wrong. 
 So how has your kingdom perspective informed your your understanding of the of the church. 
 
[20:32] So you know my kingdom wonders of course it's morphed it's matured along the way in the beginning it was all about power. 
 And it was all about the manifestations of the kingdom it was all experiential empirical and that sense which was quite looking back very dangerous. 
 Because at a young age and you know although I had I had a love for the word I pursued experienced more than being grounded at the word. 
 And no one knowing now back if I knew back then I will pursue Jesus very differently but, you know hindsight's 20/20 and it's it's process, isn't it. God has us on a different journey. 
 But my conclusion today at the kingdom is this, it's the older I get, Mark, the more simpler I become. 
 And one thing that I realize is the kingdom is really when it comes down to it bottom line is love. [21:39] You know I asked this question you know every day three questions and I end up with a fourth and it's who is Jesus where is he going. 
 Am I following him. [21:52] What does love look like, 

it's very good very good 

and those four had become my pillar questions every day, in Ministry with my family and of course you know we have our good days and bad days along the way but I try to adhere and try to hold on to those questions, and it becomes love and I'll say this part, you know once there was a prophet that called me out of a meeting that I was at years ago. 
 And I was I think I was 21 years old and he said this. He called me on, he said amongst anything else, young man, you're going to be known for Love Around the World. 
 
[22:32] And I thought what kind of dumb prophetic word isn't it. I was so offended. 
 
 

Probably not the kind of word a young man wants to hear 

no I wanted to hear you get a take over the world God's gonna send you to speak to presidents, the nation's and you're going to bring Revival everywhere you go and, you know it's I wanted you know you’re going to move in signs and wonders, you will be known for power you know I want to be known for those things and he said yet you're going to be known for Love Around the World, and I was so offended but now I look back and say you know I had the spirit of stupid on me back then, 

cast that out Jesus 

Right and I'm still casting that thing out once in a while but with all that said I think that was probably the most significant and most powerful word out of any prophetic words I, hmm But you'll be known for love and to me that is the essence of the Kingdom. Because if we're loving well we're fulfilling the will of God. 
 
[23:41] So often when I talk to pastors the challenge is in discipleship one of the challenges and that is how do we disciple. 

Believers to not only love Jesus but to follow him. [23:59] With a kingdom perspective so that their idea of fulfilling the calling on their life is not just showing up on Sunday mornings at 11:00 and putting their tithe in the plate. 
 How do you how do you see that how do you rise to that challenge. 
 
 [24:16] You mean tithing isn't everything? 

It's there in the book 

Now that you know well number one I think. 
 As pastors especially those of us who've been pastoring this is my third almost 30 years in Ministry Pastorate for over 20 years and you know part of that whole Essence is for us to have a healthy soul. It's hard to disciple when we have a tough time trusting and again that comes down to love. But with that said you know it's it goes Way Beyond just teaching from the platform or the pulpit isn't it it has to be you know it's what Jesus did, you know oftentimes this is what I say I say you know oftentimes as pastors we act as travel agents more than travel guides. and we need more guides than agents agents just pointing towards directions and tell people to go. 
 Well guides walk alongside them bring them with you and you know I reminded in the book of Acts with the Ethiopian eunuch. 
 
[25:30] With Phillip you know Phillip goes and says hey do you know what you're reading and he says how will I understand unless anyone guides me. 
 
 [25:38] And and so we have to go from the pulpit stage Ministry into what I believe I call all of life and we have to model it. 
 We can expect just them to go out and do it we have to we have to go out and demonstrate the best we can and that takes time. 
 And I think discipleship one is intentional it doesn't just happen by hanging out. 
 But in the hanging out intentional hanging out be intentional about modeling what the Kingdom looks like in everyday life, what that looks like in terms of being nudged by the holy spirit in the midst of having a Bible study or whatever the discipleship group looks like whether in a public place or private place and following that notch. 
 And again the discipleship is really big because I feel like the church has replaced discipleship development with leadership development. 
 
 [26:35] And what we're trying to treat everyone as follower I mean leaders you know true leadership is based on the foundation of followership and so we needed to teach people how to follow rather than just be leaders and of course I'm a big Believer in leadership development it's what I do. But it's on the basis of followership and we have to focus and move away from trying to create influencers to actually creating real disciples. 
 
 [27:04] That's good I like that. I like that a lot.let me just ask you kind of a side question here because this is one of my passions the whole area of leadership and Leadership training in so and which is part of the Kingdom. Is there a leadership calling outside of the call of God. If you understand the question 

I do I guess that depends on the definition of leadership and how we Define that. 
 And it of course this is John Maxwell will go back to what perhaps the listeners familiar with 

never heard of him!

You know I never have either I just ran into him yesterday on the other how many books has he written what a gift isn't he know what an Incredible Gift not just to the body of Christ but to the world and so I've never met him and you know one day perhaps I will but I, truly honor respect that I've learned a lot from reading his materials but with that said you know he said, leadership is basically one who has followers. 
 
[28:21] But yet I do believe that there is a spiritual gift of leadership right Romans 12 speaks of it very clearly and so the naive that would be unbiblical. 
 But there is a Grace I believe that comes that comes by the power of the Holy Spirit. 
 To lead his people well like Solomon when he had a blank check and he said God give me understanding and knowledge. Give me wisdom that I may lead your people well and and so. I believe that there is a special gift of leadership there is an anointing and Grace for that and yet by the definition that John Maxwell gives us that if you have followers you’re a leader, that the potential of really the way I see it is every person is a potential leader if not a leader. 
 
 [29:16] I once heard someone say that if you think you're a leader, look over your shoulder and look to see if there's anybody following you and I've always remembered that because over my years of being in Ministry I've often done that, and it it's a good reminder that we need, we need to be courageous enough bold enough and honest enough to ask those kinds of questions about who we are I think the church is so valued leadership it's almost kind of gotten out of balance where we want everybody in the church to be a leader it's right and, it ends up being kind of a I think behind it is a spirit of inclusiveness which I don't think is actually from the Lord and so I like what you saying this morning because we've got to somehow bring a balance where, people find great joy and thrill in in serving and in following, of course that whole servant thing to it was used to abuse people in the past and so that's why I say we've got to have a balance between those things but there is a. [30:31] I think one of the key things and discipling people is to say are you prepared to follow and over time allow the Lord to make it clear whether or not you're also leading. 
 
 

Yeah absolutely you know I love I love that you're highlighting this Mark because. [30:49] When it comes to leadership and you know John Maxwell said this also you said if you think you're a leader and no one's following you you're just taking a walk. 
 Walk in the park walk in the park, and you know there's there's many of us that are like that and yet I do believe that there is a Spiritual Authority that God puts on a person in the body of Christ there is order, no matter whether we like it or not there is a hierarchical order of leadership and a protocol in the kingdom of God. And when I approach you know I've had the privilege of being summoned by Kings and different Prime Ministers to speak with them and there's a protocol in the way you enter in. 
 And like that I believe that there are you know there are metrons that God gives to us in spheres and yet in that you know if we think of leadership in the way we do today as success Jesus was a big failure as a leader. 
 
 [31:50] You know he spoke to 10,000 people on the side of a mountain you know with the greatest sermon ever preached Matthew 5 6 7 7 on the mount and by the time he was done he had less people than he started with. 
 
 [32:05] And and then he had to buy them lunch! 

that's that's right and and so you know the element of faithfulness is so critical in this because servant leadership is based upon faithfulness and oftentimes when we think of the message of the kingdom and we talked about faith we equated to Miracles and healings and the manifestation of the power gifts yet the true fruit of Faith to me, his faithfulness it's the ability to endure and persevere. And and serve and so going back to the question you asked me previously you know how did I go from serving another man's Vineyard into my own Vineyard, I didn't worry about my own Vineyard in fact I didn't want my own Vineyard. 

[32:58] I always just said God I have a servant's heart I just want to serve. 
 
 [33:05] And the running joke is this with me and my friends is good, more and more you shy away from these positions and platforms the more God seems to give to you, that's right that's right that's true and it's true and I look at that and say you know what God that is so true so maybe I need to be ambitious and maybe I do need to jockey for position and maybe I do need to move in a little more insecurity and he'll take away some stuff has and so I think that whole element of, followership understanding followership before leadership is critical and Paramount and I tell our church I'm not your senior pastor we have a senior pastor, his name is Jesus. I'm your senior leader, follow me as I follow Christ 

excellent excellent. When we were talking before the show before we hit the record button I asked you about the passion of your heart and you said Revival and reformation. I’m wondering if it's okay with you if we could talk a little bit about both of those things. 
 
 

Absolutely. For the religious perspective, my passion is Jesus’ house. That Mark that I stand corrected and I do gladly. 
 
 

What's your definition of Revival, Tony? 

To me Revival is the [34:33] Re Reviving The Church. To me it's a Reawakening, it's for the church to come back alive and to me my metric for that would be coming back to First Love With Jesus. 
 
 [34:52] And and then of course the manifestations in the outpourings along the byproduct of Revival, salvations is a hallmark reconciliation is another one you know there's characteristics of Revival that we learn throughout history that are a part of it, but to me the core underpinning foundation of the essence of Revival is going back to our first love to Jesus. 
 [35:18] And then Reformation is really the infrastructure, the systems that really allow us to sustain Revival. And so Revival again, First Love Reformation, I actually derive that Reformation not from a historical sense but from a biblical sense and Hebrews 9: 10. 
 And at the end of that verse it says until a time of reformation and that word Reformation is diorthosis which means to create a new order or create a new system. 
 And that's exactly what Jesus did he, brought Reformation as the greatest Revivalist, greatest performer That Ever Walked the Earth. He brought Revival to the religious sector, calling people back into Covenant with God, first love, and then he came to bring a new order which, Mark, the New Order is the way of the Kingdom. 
 
 

A lot of the time when people talk about Revival they're really referring to evangelism is evangelism part of your definition of Revival? 
 
[36:34] I would include that as part of the outward workings of Revival. 
 And the byproduct of what Revival does because of our love for Jesus will come back to First Love, you know when we come you know, the best way I can put it is this, Mark, you could understand this with me and The Listener as well is. [36:58] I've been married for 24 years. I talk about my wife everywhere I go and every chance I get because I'm in love with her I don't just love her I'm in love with her. [37:11] And when we fall back in love with Jesus you talk about the one that you're in love with. And and so that's Revival. We get back into first love with Jesus and we tell everyone about it, and that that is the outer workings in a manifestation. The fruit of Revival which is evangelism unto the Harvest. 
 
 

When we talk about reformation which is the other, key to this the twins that were talking about today Revival and Reformation we often think about things in the church that either we need to come back to or things that need adjustment. Can you just take a few minutes and talk a little bit more about that? I think it's a really important subject but I find that, for a lot of people they hear the word reformation and they think of it as an academic word so either if they're academically inclined they say oh yes let's talk about it but the majority of people don't they just kind of tune out because they really don't grasp what that means. 
 
[38:22] Yeah absolutely and you're so right Reformation has become a historical word based out of scholarship instead of a word that's biblical that functions in in through the. 
 [38:36] And and so but let's talk about history as I say that for a moment let's see let's do it her many many obviously there are many reformers, you know we have John Huss who was before Martin Luther who is known as the great reformer the great Reformation you have Zwingli you have Wycliffe, you have a number of people that gone before, but yet Martin Luther was the one that came to the Forefront and the height of what we called reformation and took place on October 31st 1517, he nailed the door 95 Theses on the door Wittenberg Saxony, and for the listener by the way that's debatable, they don't know if that's just a legend or if it's a true story but we know that the 95 Theses got to the papal quarters, we do know that for a fact, so with that said Martin Luther gets his Revelation in the word about we are justified by faith. And then the five solas come forth, right, faith alone is one, of scripture alone is one of them, and in fact the five solas unfortunately, from the First Reformation is actually what eliminated the apostolic or the apostolic city of the church which now we I believe is being restored back today by the Holy Spirit and thank God for that yes a man. 
 
 [39:58] And so so there are some positives and negatives from the Reformation of history but with that said Martin Luther wanted to go back into the revelation of what he studied as far as answering the question how is one saved. It’s not through indulgences, it's not through words but it's by grace through faith, Ephesians 2: 8, 9 and so with that said. 
 
 [40:23] We called the Great reformer but if Reformation was about us going back going into a system and changing it that means that Martin Luther was the greatest failure of a reformer throughout all of history. Because he didn't change anything, he got excommunicated from the church and by the way that was not his goal. 
 And but yet he was removed from the known church and all of a sudden this whole new system or order called protestantism or Protestants came forth. 
 
 [40:58] And so but by definition from the scriptures of diorthosis being reformation and creating a new order that means that Martin Luther was absolutely successful in creating a new order. Other Kingdom with the new Revolution and so Reformation outside of scholarship has always began with the church as Revival has. 
 And Reformation is going back to the truth and revelation of what the word of God says in manifesting that in a system in an order that will sustain the moves of God, and what's on God's heart and his desires for generations to come, and so reformers in this whole world of reformation is really this idea of establishing something. 
 
 

In a minute I want to talk about the apostolic and prophetic, you brought up the apostolic a moment ago but carrying on with the Reformation or Reformation what are some practical examples of that today that you can point to? 
 
 

So I would say if we look at our culture today, And this applies to really Every Nation because every nation on the Earth has been shaken through what we’ve just gone through through the pandemic crisis, [42:27] And so through the pandemic crisis we have all experienced Reformation or reform. [42:34] Closing the borders that is a reform. 
 Changing legislation for businesses to do business in a different expression that is reform. 
 And so whether we are aware of or aware of it or not we're being affected by reform every day whenever there's a new law pass there's a new reform that takes place. 
 So we're all affected by it so so with that said with all the reform taking place with the church. The two biggest. 
 [43:11] I would say reform that took place over perhaps the last 30, 40 years is this whole, foundation of the prophetic or the prophets and the apostolic or the apostles, being restored back into the body of Christ and again as I said Reformation Reformation always begins with the church and those are two things that are being highlighted today. 
 
 [43:38] That's that's good well let's let's talk a little bit about the apostolic and prophetic for a moment. Back in the 80s I think it was I came across a book by David Cannistraci called The Gift of Apostle. I think we were talking about it earlier and [44:00] Never heard of it, picked it up read the book, felt like I was looking at myself in a mirror. 
 I had never heard about anybody writing about anything really Apostolic before. 
 You know we were in a strange time now this is my timeline historically might be out of sync with other people's timeline but before that it was all about, the prophets and becoming a prophet or being a prophet and I call it the p word because we didn't quite have the courage to say Prophet now what now people say I'm Prophet David or I'm prophet Susan or something like that and then after that it was the a word right we didn't say apostle they do and people go around and say are you an apostle and I go I don't know am I or and then of course there were the other people's a yes you could tell by my Superman cape I'm wearing that I'm an apostle. But nevertheless regardless of how that kind of was done well or not done well it really has been a reinstating, a Reformation of the apostolic and the prophetic don't you think? 
 
 [45:08] Absolutely absolutely. And with this I mean if we look scripturally again I'm a big I love the word Mark you know and I know you're a man of the word as well and which is one of the reasons I so love and appreciate you as I'm getting to know you, the foundation of the church is based on Apostles and Prophets You Know according to Ephesians 2:20, now as I say that I'm not talking about modern-day Apostles or prophets I'm talking about, contextualizing that rightly and talking about the prophetic the laws of the prophets and the doctrines in the teachings of the Apostles that's what Paul is talking about there, but yet within that just a function of the Apostles and Prophets that's been missing for decades and, and so we're seeing this Resurgence I believe in a new expression of the church but not only the church I'm talking about not the traditional sense but the the sense of the ekklesia. 
 [46:11] You know and and we're seeing we're seeing just incredible and we're hearing testimonies of transformation we're hearing testimonies of how the kingdom is, not just staying within the four walls of a church anymore but really infiltrating like the as the leaven of the Kingdom every place and every space in society, and really we need the prophetic word we need the prophetic vision, and we need the apostolic Grace to build and I believe one of the verses I pray everyday Ephesians 1:17 I pray to the Lord Lord Jesus Christ the father of Glory, you give to me the spirit of wisdom and Revelation in the knowledge of God is that Apostolic wisdom and prophetic revelation, so we need the apostles and Prophets today to advance the church and this doesn't negate the Evangelist, pastor, teacher. 
 And that's what we need to understand because now we have Pastors trying to become apostles, and I'm saying we need pastors more than ever because without pastors the apostles are going to just burn everybody out. 
 
 [47:20] And we you know and so we need the entire Ascension gifts mentioned in Ephesians 4:11 and the challenge in this Mark I believe when there's a new revelation or something new God's doing. 
 Everyone leaves the old for the new, but we have to understand God builds line upon line precept upon precept so whatever he released last generation we need to bring that into our generation and add to what the holy spirit's revealing to us. 
 Tony I'm going to ask you to go out on a limb here, a bit of a prophetic limb, if God is restoring God the holy spirit it's his work, in his church if he is restoring the apostolic in the prophetic now in our time it's for a reason. What do you think that reason is talking about the future, that is? 
 
 

We're going to open up a can of worms here aren't we Mark? I really believe that you know this this what I say, a convert’s goal is to go to heaven. A disciple’s goal is to bring Heaven to Earth and and we're not just converts of course we want to convert but we're called to make disciples. 
 
[48:42] And and so, living out the disciples’ prayer in Matthew 6:9 where Jesus says you know when you pray pray like this Our Father holy is your name. 
 And then he makes that declaration this part is not a prayer if you dissect the Greek it's an emphatic declaration it's calm thy kingdom be done thy will. Exclamation point. 
 And I believe with the restoration of Apostles and Prophets and seeing the Ascension gifts come together to see the fruit of Ephesians chapter 4 verses 12 to 16 come to manifestation, and raising up mature sons of God. That we're good at what we are establishing and we are bringing Heaven to Earth, come your kingdom, be done thy will, and so we want to see Heaven on Earth, and not live a life of denial either because we're seeing our culture grow darker. You know we're gross times right now with people calling evil good and good evil Isaiah 5:20, but yet in Isaiah 60 it says arise Shine for the glory of the Lord has risen upon you and I believe that the apostles and Prophets being restored is going to help the church arise and shine in this hour to see his kingdom come. 
 
 [50:06] It's good it's very good you know the problem I'm having right now as I now have a million things I want to talk about let's just watching our time here I need to leash myself a little bit wind in the leash so the apostolic in the prophetic, we have been that's not new to me it's not new to you it may be new to some of our listeners but this has been going on as I said my first real wake-up call to it was back in the back in the 80s, and certainly through the 90s but has the church I know that I know there are exceptions but has the church. I'm thinking about local congregations all over the world have they really understood let alone embraced the apostolic, maybe they have the prophetic but What do you think? 
 
 [51:03] I think we are still learning. [51:08] Because really we’re less than one generation we're less than 20 years in really of even operating it embracing a talking about the apostolic or apostleship. So we're in the very Genesis in the infancy stage of this and I don't say that to offend anybody but just looking at the time period it's it's still very new, and so I think we're still growing in this and I think depending on what what denomination or what the leadership and a local church believes we're do you know some of us and I believe most of us, are doing our best to implement this in our own way in our own expression and in our own understanding of it, and I could tell you for me I thank God for people like Peter Wagner who's given us much language, who's a personal mentor of Mine by the way that I traveled within the conferences and spoke with which was a real honor but yet with saying that, while sharing some Concepts and understanding of the function and the role and, and just the core DNA of the apostolic and you know Peter he's written like 80, 86 or 88 books I forgot you know God bless him as he's home with the Lord now, but he would say you know what Tony you gotta write that for your generation. [52:29] Because he said that's another layer of apostolic and so I believe we're coming into greater understanding in terms of perhaps whether it's through experience or just the study of God's word in this so I'm not sure how to answer that outside of that Mark. 
 
 [52:43] Well I think that was a good pretty good attempt. For the budding Apostle that's out there listening to this podcast what advice would you give them? 
 
 [52:58] Romans 11 the Apostle Paul. You know Romans as we know is really The Gospel According to Paul it's the way I describe it and I love how he begins. [53:12] Book of Romans letter to the Romans and the ROM is I a bond servant of the Lord Jesus Christ an apostle. [53:23] You know it's the person who feels a called to be an apostle or the young Apostle or an old Apostle for that matter I would say. 
 The whole position and posture of that is to be a bondservant of the Lord Jesus Christ. 
 Add in to serve the body of Christ to lay down our life to pour out our life. 
 You know for the body of Christ and even Paul said it you know the apostles are the bottom of the feet. You know we're scum of the earth that's what he called calls himself as an apostle. You know which I don't quite appreciate Mark but you know. 
 But you know that's but you you hear the humility and the love he has along with again to me Apostle equals Bond servant. 
 [54:16] So be a bondservant stay at Timothy than trying to be a Paul. 
 With great privilege comes great responsibility and I think sometimes when we are speaking about. These privileges that we forget that there is a testing and proving a. 
 And that proving is not just the action of a man or a woman but it's a heart demonstrated through that heart and action and that often doesn't happen, quickly. It takes a lifetime right it does it doesn't mean the gift that says or the anointing increases or decreases because that's given by God but. I find it inspiring to talk about this with you today because I feel that we are moving to a moment. And maybe there's many more moments but I feel like we're moving. [55:20] To a moment in the history of the world where we are going to see God move by his spirit like we've never seen before. [55:31] But it's going to be through his church so Reformation Revival and Reformation for me always is talking about what Jesus is about to do through his body. 
 
 

How do you feel that in going forward and I'm talking about right now today and going forward if you could say I've got my day planner on my desk I'm planning the next 10 years. [55:54] In a couple of words what would you put in that day planner. 
 
 [56:01] Who is Jesus who is he created me to be where's he going am I following him and what does love look like. [56:14] That's what I would put in my day planner, and seek the Lord and get those answers and for me to Advance. [56:25] Well to that I would say keep going keep praying keep praying that prayer. I believe that as we go forward and God we're going to see God glorify himself through Us in the world. And Following him.

Keep your eyes on Jesus, it was a simple song chorus we sang all those years ago but so continues to be so important today, 

that's right that's right one other thing that I like to add with the remark is another question that I ask is who am I going to do it with. So oftentimes we operate as a body part but not part of the body and we're called to be part of the body it's so what community what local expression, are you going to run with and be a blessing to what does that look like today this afternoon with how are they benefiting from Christ in you the hope of glory. 

That's good very good. [57:28] Well before we go could I ask you to pray for our listeners those people who have been, stirred by our conversation and they are thinking about it all maybe they have more questions than they have answers but they they want to personally, be revived they want to Have God do whatever he wants to do in and through their lives for his glory they want to follow him they want to love him and Learn to Love, would you pray for those people and as just as the spirit would lead we just just invite you to do that now. 
 
 

Absolutely, I'd be honored to. Father we thank you for, The Listener right now got the one person that you have brought to listen to this podcast, God I pray Grace Grace upon them. [58:23] Lord I pray father through this discussion God that that the truths of the your word the truth from the spirit of Truth holy spirit that God you would release, just a fresh fire for for this brother for this sister got I pray Lord that you would bring us back to first love God I pray that you would Revive Our Hearts in this season I pray for refreshing I pray Zechariah 10:1 that in a time of rain we ask for more rain so I pray the rain of Heaven over, this listener God and Lord I pray father that you would be glorified God give us a heart of a reformer to Spirit of a Revival or for us to advance your kingdom, but I pray that we would be ones that as we go that people look at us and say isn't God good, is the Lord I pray that everywhere we go your kingdom would be manifest God Through Your Love through hope through faith God and that the power of the Holy Spirit would be demonstrated, Lord to raise the dead to heal the sick to cleanse the lepers God to cast out Devils, Lord every dimension of your kingdom and God I pray for the gifts that lie dormant, that are within this person Lord that you would pull it forth we pray blessing and we pray increase upon you right now and so God I pray does the blessing from the father over this one. [59:50] But I pray God that the father's blessing they would encounter you even in Greater place in a deeper place of love with you that knowing that they are loved no matter what position what title what function they hold, God and all of our hearts God that we just want to say yes to you. [1:00:08] And so Father release that Apostolic Grace, prophetic grace raise up Apostles and Prophets. 
 For Your Glory that Jesus you would receive your inheritance that's worthy for you in Jesus name. 
 Amen. 
 
 [1:00:25] Music. 
 
 [1:00:35] And that's our show for today thanks for listening. 
 We hope you enjoyed this episode of Kingdom talk you can find all the notes and links for today's show at our website www.engvid.com Industries.com forward slash. 
 
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 [1:01:04] Music.