Mark: 0:10

Welcome to Kingdom Talk, the podcast where we talk all about things kingdom. I'm your host, Mark Banyard, and I'll be interviewing a variety of people who through their lives and ministries have been committed to advancing the kingdom of God. Church planters, church leaders, pioneers of missions and ministries, both at home as well as abroad. So let's go straight to today's episode of Kingdom Talk.

Mark: 0:47

Our guest today is Pete Mahoney. Pete was first on our show back in January of 2023. Pete is an entrepreneur, a missionary, a Bible teacher, an author, a prophetic voice, as well as many other things. When Pete was first on the show, he and I took on a pretty big subject with regard to hearing the voice of God and the prophetic. We talked about the biblical basis for the prophetic in our individual lives, as well as in and through the church.

Mark: 1:20

We also talked about some of the abuses and excesses of the prophetic, particularly in charismatic churches. It was too big of a subject for us to cover the first time around. So this episode, we have really tried to once again get back into our conversation to cover more of this significant subject.

Mark: 1:40

This episode is part one of a two-part conversation, the second of which I'll be posting in a few weeks' time.

Mark: 1:49

Good morning. It is a new day. This is the day the Lord has made. And I am so excited because once again I have my friend Pete Mahoney on the show. Welcome, Pete.

Pete: 2:02

So glad to be here with you, Mark.

Mark: 2:04

Let's just jump right in. Let's talk about the state of the prophetic movement in the church today.

Pete: 2:13

Yeah, that's a big subject, isn't it? And we got into it last time. A lot of things have happened, those that are familiar with kind of because that's that's also a big phrase, right? The prophetic movement. Whoa. Who do you consider to be in the prophetic movement and what is that? But those that believe that God is still speaking and those ministries that focus on hearing the voice of God and expressing that to others specifically, and ministries that believe in that. There's been a, in my view, kind of an explosion, maybe not in the most positive sense. Maybe an implosion is a better word, for what has happened in these last months and last year, years since we have last spoken. It's not been good. At least in one sense, it has not been good. In another sense, it's very good because God is in it, because he wants his glory to shine forth in purity and in holiness. And what has happened is there's been a lot of revelation of some wonkiness, some sin, some manipulation. And that's putting it mildly in certain circles with some of the largest prophetic voices and even prophetic movements in the church today.

Mark: 3:27

What do you think that uh the response has been to some of the things that have come out and come out through the sifting of God?

Pete: 3:38

Well, the responses have been all over the map, and I think that's fairly typical, you know, when you have because there's lots of factors going on, because it's not just about the prophetic, it's about the personal and people that have been abused through the manipulation of the prophetic and also just the manipulation of individuals involved. And so whether we're talking about IHOP or different personalities who have been known prophetic voices, who have been caught data mining, several of them, uh high profile figures. People have really stood back and said, what is this all about? Like, where is God in this? And why is all of this happening? And why didn't God stop it? And why, you know, so there's a lot of questions and a lot of hurt involved in this because there was, in certain circumstances, sexual abuse involved in it, uh manipulation for those purposes, uh lying, you know, all these sorts of things that are completely the opposite of what God wants with this movement, right? The whole purpose of it is that people would know and understand who Christ is in intimacy, and that the spirit of prophecy is the testimony of Jesus. That's what it was supposed to be.

Mark: 4:48

And that's why and and and still is and can be, right?

Pete: 4:53

Oh, absolutely. Well, that's what I'm saying. Like, that's why people were so shook by it, because the purpose of God in the prophetic, the opposite had happened for uh, you know, it kind of blew up in people's minds and people's hearts what's going on and how why has God allowed this? So when you say what is the reaction, there's a lot of different reactions. Some people responded with God was never in this, I'm I'm going to the door. Some people responded with, um, this is just a leader who has fallen and I'm following the Lord. So I'm going to continue on and continue on with everything that God has in my life, even though I'm hurt right now. Uh so there's been a wide variety of reaction, but you could say implosion and explosion for sure.

Mark: 5:33

Right. Let's just leave the uh the reaction uh to one side. We'll get back to that later. And I think it's fair to call it actually a damage report, not just simply a reaction. And I want to leave that and come back to it because I think it's on my heart was some one of the things I'm really concerned about, are the people who have been hurt by this. But uh perhaps the knee jack-jerk reaction to just say, I don't want anything to do with the prophetic ever again. I don't want anything to do with the apostolic, because those two things are often lumped together. And also what I'm hearing, and um not through the grapefruit vine, but directly through people, is that they don't want anything to do with the charismatic movement, which in one simple, you know, one bucket for for all statement, is that they don't want anything to do with the the Holy Spirit, which they often, which is labeled the excesses of the spirit, which fair enough, sometimes it is. You know, when it's the flesh, that's the that definitely is not the Holy Spirit, but it is perceived as excesses. So let's just talk about the heart of this uh um in a couple ways. First of all, just we're not really talking about God and his spirit, we're talking about man's use or abuse of it, correct?

Pete: 6:57

Absolutely. I mean, these things are I mean, if you tie together what happened with just the general principles of the prophetic and lump them all in one thing and say, because these things happened, we're gonna chuck the prophetic. That's like the classic example of we're no, we're no longer gonna have worship in the church because the worship leader was in sexual sin, or we're no longer gonna teach whatever doctrine and whatever. I mean, if you look at the church, it uh usually what happens is you'll have like a charismatic leader fall, and then the reformed people are all jumping on them saying, look, it was because of their theology that that this person fell, but then a reformed leader falls. And then what do you say then? Did they fall because they have the wrong theology? And when the Catholic leader falls, it's because of their theology. No, it's because they're sinners, you know, who need first of all redemption if they don't have that, and then sanctification. Uh, you know, the expectation should be that our leaders uh move in holiness and in righteousness. And when they get separated out, where they become kind of their own celebrity status, where no one can come to them and say, hey, brother, you you got some, there's some stuff in your life. It can go sideways really fast, and that's what we're seeing.

Pete: 8:08

So we have to separate those two things out and say, you can always point and say, well, because of this person's theology, that's why they fell into sin. Maybe that's true. Or maybe it just could be because they're a person and they fell into sin because they separated themselves out from the body, they had no accountability, they had no elders over them, or whatever. We all fall into sin. There are different levels of sin as far as the ramifications of those sins. And also what's even, I wouldn't say it's even more important, but what's even, you know, it's very important to speak about the response that people have. So it's not just about whether you were caught in sin, but what is your response when you are? Is it making excuses? Is it kicking back against the victims? Is it all you know, blaming other people? Then that shows a really deep-rooted issue in you as a believer, if that's your response. And that has been the response with a lot of these folks. And so I can understand why people are like confused by the whole thing.

Pete: 9:05

But we have to do two things. One is allow for there to be the potential of restoration in certain circumstances, determined by, you know, whatever the elders of that movement are. But we also can't just allow people to do whatever they want and say, well, I'm restored because I did A, B, and C. There has to be a standard of like, if you do these certain things, then you probably shouldn't be in ministry anymore. But maybe I'm wrong on that.

Mark: 9:34

Um yeah, you might say the jury's out on that, but I think there's a lot of people who would be be willing to uh vote right now, given the chance. Um something about the charismatic. Now, for me, I just for the for our listeners, I just I just want to maybe define the word charismatic. If if you think of the charismatic, if you use the word charismatic in terms of the charismatic move, which most people are referring to charismatic churches, uh for me, my understanding is, and because I caught the tail end of that when I became a believer, there was a move in the 60s, and it impacted uh particularly the Roman Catholic Church, the Anglican Church, and the United Church here in Canada. And of course, down in the States, it had a different expression, but it was more towards traditional churches and movements than it was to the more modern certain Pentecostalism didn't need a charismatic move. Um the AOG didn't, the Pentecostals Assembly of uh Canada didn't, and around the world, so on and so forth. So, you know, rather than talking about the gift of the Holy Spirit, when we talk about charismatic churches, we're really talking about traditions, um, an understanding and appreciation of the gifts and how they're used. And so um with so back to the charismatic movement right now. If if the wheels are have fallen off the wagon, or not close, but almost, what are some of the things that need to be put into place so this doesn't happen again or that we can rebuild?

Pete: 11:25

Yeah, I think in a general sense, there needs to be a return to just the pureness of humility, saying we don't we obviously have in some ways gotten this wrong in whatever uh structure that this has been put forward, whatever structure we've been using, we need to evaluate that structure and say, what why is this continuing to fall apart? Because it is continuing to fall apart. So we need to ask the question, why does this keep happening? Where we have these big collapses of movements, etc. Now, not that that's new in the church, but why is it specifically tied with prophecy? What goes wrong in prophecy and why does it keep happening is a good question to ask. And say in humility, Lord, please give us the guideposts. What is the way to go? Well, he's the way, the truth, and the life. So we know that again, the spirit of prophecy is the testimony of Jesus. So that's the that's the key. So then we need to go back to that. And I think that first of all, it's going back to what is the scriptural purpose of prophecy? Go back there and also be open to a unity of the body across denominational walls because we all carry something different that the other needs.

Mark: 12:41

So let me jump in. What's your answer to that? Your your quickie answer. That's not fair. I know.

Pete: 12:47

What's my quickie answer to to

Mark: 12:50

that question?

Pete: 12:51

To the prophetic going bad, and how do we get back on track?

Mark: 12:53

No, the scriptural...,

Pete: 12:55

Oh, yes. What is the scriptural purpose of prophecy? Yes. Well, to strengthen, encourage, and comfort, you know, the body. That's the primary purpose of prophecy, according to the scriptures, is to strengthen, encourage, and comfort the body, which includes individuals, obviously. We also look at all the references to, you know, to revealing God to non-believers, that the voice of God through us can be a way in which God communicates to even the non-believer and makes the the secrets of their heart laid bare, where they're like, there is a living God, and we get to be a part of that. So that's that's an evangelistic tool where we're preaching the gospel, we're also sharing the heart of God for individuals. And those individuals are touched by things that God is saying to them and also revealing sometimes even sin in their life, or revealing parts of their heart that they're like, I need to repent, I need to turn to Christ and receive the gospel.

Pete: 13:52

So you have a strengthening, encouraging, and comforting within the body. You have a revelation of God to non-believers who get their secrets of their hearts revealed. You have an equipping of believers for ministry. When you look at the fivefold, one of those is the purpose of prophecy, right? Is to equip believers for ministry so that each of us can know how to hear God's voice, share what the Lord is speaking, not in a this, thus saith the Lord kind of way, but in first of all, in our personal prayer life, learning to discern what is God, what is not. Um, it starts in the small things. It starts in just when you're praying just alone in your room, when you hear something, is that God? Is that something else? Is that my own thoughts? You're starting there, you're not jumping to these prophetic declarations to other people, but you're it's a way in which God is communicating to your heart in intimacy with Him. So that's that's something that's like baseline Christianity, right? Right. Going into the Word of God, you're hearing the Word of God through the scriptures, and then God is illuminating that to you through the Holy Spirit. So how is he doing that if he's not speaking to you?

Pete: 15:07

Now, my reformed friends or more conservative friends might say, well, that's not God's will, but it is, right? You could at least say that illumination is the Lord speaking to your heart. So we have learning and edification. Again, that when Paul talks about when the prophets get together and they speak, they're judging each other. Uh, the listeners are hearing and weighing it and testing it, and that is for their learning and edification. So we can't have everybody speaking at the same time, Paul says, because we need everybody needs to be able to hear so that they can learn and they can be encouraged, so that everybody can be. So that's why there needs to be order if there's going to be a uh a public declaration of prophecy, right?

Pete: 15:48

So, anyways, I'm going, I'm sorry, I'm going through a lot of things now, but these are the things where you look at when the scripture talks about prophecy, what are they what is it talking about? And also guidance, like guidance and direction. You'll see that specifically in the book of Acts, where they're getting, you call it a download from the Lord saying, do this, go to this place. God is sending you out to here. Um, Acts chapter 13.

Pete: 16:13

So those are the things that I see as far as what are the purposes of prophecy. And you'll notice that all of them are about strengthening the body and for the purposes of God. So it's not about, not that God can't speak to our individual lives and the various things that are going on in our lives. Of course he can't. Of course he wants to. But I think overarching the gift of prophecy is for the body, for the encouragement and strengthening of the body, for us together to know what God is saying and where to go. Um, yeah, so that's what that's what I would say as far as what what the scriptural purpose of prophecy is, and you can add to that.

Mark: 16:56

Wow. So uh boy, there's so many things that we could talk about. Um in the shortness of our time, though. Uh just very quickly, uh just I guess to summarize what you just said, at a time like this, the time that we find ourselves in, maybe it's good for us to go back to the Bible and to review what the Bible says about this rather than just listen to yet again another podcast like we're doing this morning. Um or or the opinions of men is really um uh the hearsay and the, you know, the sometimes the the comments that are fueled by hurt, you know, which are genuine, the the feelings are genuine, maybe the comments aren't correct. But so so we really need to go back and say what does the scripture say about this? But uh in what you said is also kind of uh some of the founding issues of or the dynamics of what's going on here, and that is that we can have the Ten Commandments, let's say, and we can read them out and we can study them, but then we go and live our lives either according to or not according to.

Pete: 18:08

Right.

Mark: 18:08

So you can have a church that teaches all about the prophetic, all about the apostolic, and you know, but how they operate in the gifts of the spirit and how they use them for their own benefit can differ from the teaching itself.

Pete: 18:23

That's right.

Mark: 18:24

And uh therein lies the problem. Uh one of the things I see, and we I want to get back to some of your other points about going forward with this from a biblical um point of view. There's something in this about becoming a celebrity.

Speaker: 18:39

Yes.

Mark: 18:40

You know, there's something about becoming famous, there's something about these guys who operate in these things where they draw thousands of hundreds, if not thousands, of people to themselves. But at the end of the day, you're not thinking about the people who are sitting in the congregation. You're thinking about that that particular person. Is there any uh any thoughts about that with regard to going forward? I mean, we can't stop that from happening. I guess that has to do with the heart of each individual.

Pete: 19:08

That does have to do with the heart of each individual, but I think you're hitting on something that has infiltrated into specifically the charismatic movement that I think needs to be called out. Or at least it needs to be discussed, like it needs to be okay. If this is what you believe, then let's talk about how this has worked out and how we can change it.

Pete: 19:27

Um, kind of how I sum it up with how things can go sideways is the three M's, which is money, manipulation, and man of God culture. So money manipulation and man of God culture. So man of God culture is the whole idea that you know touch not the Lord's anointed.

Mark: 19:46

So okay.

Pete: 19:49

So that person is kind of above the fray. The gift the gifts of God are never revoked that kind of teaching. Now we understand that there's a certain truth there. Okay, correct. Like always, there's a certain truth there. And if we're talking about honoring leadership, that's one thing, and that's a good thing, and we should honor leadership. And the scriptures tell us to very pointedly in the New Testament to do so. I agree. Um, but if you're speaking about a culture of a leader being a Moses-like figure that cannot be opposed, I can't see how that can ever go well. And how that aligns with the New Testament teachings of what a leader should be, uh, it seems to be the opposites, right? Because a leader within the church is supposed to be the greatest servant, laying their life down for the sheep, just like the grand shepherd, okay? The shepherd above all of us. And so if a man of God culture places the leader above the sheep, where he cannot be ever uh corrected, then that's just plain wrong. And it creates a culture of which people start covering things up. So it creates cover-up culture where you can't ever say anything against the leader. And if he he does something wrong, then we need to cover it up, we need to hide it, and maybe do something behind the scenes but never make it public. When a lot of times these things are are like public sins, even. So I think that that culture within the charismatic movement has to be confronted and changed, or else these things will continue to happen. That's my opinion. Because it will just allow for abuse. Because if you have one person in and who is refusing accountability, when you look at the New Testament model of the church, it's it's a plurality of elders. Right. And I know that this isn't always within the local church, but I think you have to take that principle even into the parachurch organizations, again, in my opinion.

Mark: 21:51

Right. People who are surrounded surrounded by people, but yet uh are accountable to none. It will always end up being uh a time bomb, a ticking time bomb. And and everybody is vulnerable, not just the leader, by allowing him or herself to be put in that situation, but all ultimately the people too.

Pete: 22:15

Correct. And that's I don't want to throw anybody in the under the bus on that sort of thing when if you've been hurt by a leader to then blame you and say, hey, you really need to just go back to the Bible and yes, that's true. But first of all, to acknowledge that people are really hurt, you know, they're really hurt, they've been hurt by what has happened.

Mark: 22:35

And so important.

Pete: 22:36

Yeah, and that's that's we recognize that and don't and don't belittle that and know that it takes time to come back into the fold, but just to say, don't give up on the Lord because of what his servant did, um, which I know is is an elementary principle, but all of us need to be reminded, especially when we're hurt. Because how many stories have you heard where, you know, even on a local church level, where where an elder or elders do something wrong and people get offended and they they never come back to church after that. They just they do me and Jesus.

Mark: 23:15

Right. They give up on God in a sense, but thinking that they haven't, but reality is that they have because it's more than it's more than just that.

Pete: 23:26

You can't be outside of the body, and people will say, well, I can do my Jesus and me thing in the forest. No, you can't actually. You you can in a sense that you still have a relationship with God, but the scriptures tell us that we should not forsake the gathering for a reason. That's for you. It's not just, you know, as far as a theological thing. That's for you to be healthy, and that's for you to give what you have to the body.

Mark: 23:57

I might just say at this point that uh, again, for our listeners, that these are very, very serious issues, and they are not easily solved. In uh we are not trying today, quickly trying to say this is an easy solve and just do this, this, and this, and it's all fixed, or that one person's right, one person's wrong, or if these people get their heart right, then everything will be fine. This is this is an ongoing, it's not so much something that you can resolve by just implementing a particular rule or a regulation. This is all of this that we're talking about has to do with the heart. Um, it has to do with the heart that seeks ambition, seeks to take the center and intentionally or unintentionally and displace Jesus off of his throne. It also involves the heart of the people who want a king so they can be like all the other nations. Yep. Um they they, you know, a people who want somebody to be a celebrity leader, but are quick to uh chop off that leader's head when the leader is, you know, it's discovered that they have feet of clay. Again, not making, not taking sides on this or or at all um suggesting that it's one person's fault or nor uh and not looking for excuses, but the challenge for us today is to love Jesus, to be open to the things of God, the the things that God has given us, to love his church, and to come back to that place of saying, how how do we find that balance between honoring leadership, accepting their guidance, and um but at the same time seeing that there's a biblical basis for accountability so we don't let the enemy rob us of all the wonderful things that God has given us.

Pete: 25:58

Absolutely. And I think that that's what you hit it on the nail on the head there, as far as you know, people have ideas of of things. Like they they know theologically what they should do, and they will even have a doctrinal statement or they will have a, you know, this is the guidance for how to use prophecy, and they'll be good guidance. They just don't do it themselves. Or the leadership doesn't operate in the way that's written in their own manual or whatever it is. So it really does come down to in the secret place and in your own quiet place in your heart, why are you doing what you're doing? And that's the whole teachings of Jesus through the Sermon on the Mount, all the way through. What is the intention of the heart behind why we not just what we do, but why we do it is just or more important that the seed bed of sin is that tiny thing. I'm angry with my brother, is murder. When that seed is planted, that seed becomes murder. Okay, that's a that's an incredible teaching if you think about it. But we were seeing that happening. Hatred in its smallest form, when it is birthed completely, is murder. And lust, when it is birthed completely, is adultery in the end. And so these little hearts, these little foxes, as they say, that get into the vineyard is what we're not looking at, is what we should be looking at. We're looking at the big things when in actuality it's started in those small little things that build into strongholds in our lives that are unseen by anyone, and maybe even to ourselves, right? We're we're blinded because the enemy has blinded us to it, that that little seed of hatred or that little seed of lust has gotten in and is built up over the years unchecked.

Pete: 27:49

That I think is the core of then where we end up, not only in the prophetic movement, but all of us. When we uh we don't just fall into sin. And I don't even oftentimes like to use that term, although we can. Um, but most of the time it's a steady building, and then there's the fall. So

Mark: 28:11

That's good.

Pete: 28:12

That's why you know, getting back to a focus on Christ Himself, and also sanctification, becoming more like Christ daily is some of that needs to be a central teaching in the church. And I know it's like, duh, but sanctification, becoming more like Christ, and an expectation of that, and and an expectation of holiness, knowing that we're going to fail in that. But there's an expectation of holiness for all of us, not just for the leadership, but every single one of us. The guy on the soundboard at the church has the same expectation of holiness as the leader, even though he's held to an even higher standard because he's teaching it. It's coming out of his mouth. He's held to an even higher standard, but the guy who's running the soundboard, he's held to a high standard too, you know. So that's for that's for everybody. That's a universal principle of the church.

Mark: 29:13

Before we hit the record button today, we were talking about the prophetic movement, and and you used a phrase, uh, you said that uh God has blown up the prophetic movement, uh, a very powerful, um, conjured up a very powerful picture for me. Uh but you went on to say that uh that was because that he was no longer the center. And I know that's something that's really on your heart uh about lifting up Jesus and for him being the center. Um how do you see I have a couple of questions about this. First of all, when we say that God has blown up the prophetic movement, I actually number I I actually believe that, but that's not you know, that's not. That's God doing something. Like he has broken his silence, and he has not made this happen, but he's decided to, however, he does that, and I'll leave that to other people to bring up a teach on that biblically and then wrap that in a theology. But basically, God breaks his silence and he moves in times and space in our lives. And so I believe this has happened. But but what's going on here in your understanding?

Pete: 30:30

I think it goes back to what we just spoke about, about the inner heart of man. And, you know, they will come to me on that day and say, Lord, Lord, did we not do A, B, and C? And he will say to them, I never knew you. Now, I'm not making the point that these people don't know the Lord, but the point is, what is the heart condition of why we do what we do? And I think what happened in the prophetic is the heart condition went off of Christ becoming more like Christ, the testimony of Jesus, the testimony of Jesus to us, the testimony of Jesus to the outside world, the testimony of Jesus, period. Didn't get completely lost because you can't make that statement. There are lots of people within the charismatic movement who love the Lord, who serve the Lord. That's most people who want to see the testimony of Jesus go out, but we need to stand back and say something dramatic has happened and God has been the author of it.

Pete: 31:24

There's a kairos moment right now of the Lord saying, the way that this has been done, I don't want it done this way anymore. We're done with this thing. And I think part of it is the prophetic movement being about self-focus, self-aggrandizement, my calling, etc. And it almost becoming what the accusation of the world has been towards the prophetic movement and of conservative Christians towards the prophetic movement, which is it's just like fortune telling, which it isn't, it shouldn't be, but it can become that. Where people are coming into meetings to get a word of the Lord. And, you know, I I love getting a word from the Lord. I love hearing the voice of God, and I want more of that. But what what I think came about was people were coming in with a with a idea in their head of not, I'm coming here to worship the Lord, I'm coming here to serve, I'm coming, you know, those sorts of things. To I'm coming here to get the word of the Lord for my personal whatever, whatever it is. And that that might be a uh you know, a third or a fourth thing you might have on the list of you know what might happen in a meeting like that. But it's like stand up on the front and we're gonna call people out, and it just becomes about us in a lot of ways.

Mark: 32:44

Um it has become that.

Pete: 32:46

Yeah.

Mark: 32:47

It has, it's, it has become that.

Pete: 32:50

And if you look at the New Testament and you you look at what Paul is talking about the prophetic being used for learning and encouragement, that that that seems to be a but we're learning from each other and what the Lord is speaking to other people. It's not just about us, it's about what God is doing in his church, it's about what God is doing in your local fellowship, what he's doing in your family, etc. Again, not that God can't ever speak to individual things, and he does,

Mark: 33:16

...and he does,

Pete: 33:17

but that it has become too much self-focused and not focused on Christ Himself. And so and there's been hurt within it, and people have been getting hurt, and the shepherd does not like that. Not only does that pain his heart, he hates it. He hates it when his sheep are abused, he hates it when his sheep are manipulated, he hates it when his sheep are taken advantage of. And some people out there might be wondering, well, why did God wait until now? We don't have the answer to that question, but we know then the time is now. God is unveiling. This is a moment of unveiling sin. It's a moment of unveiling abuse, and that's it's a terribly difficult time for so many people.

Pete: 34:06

But what it can be also is that moment where if a person has put their hope unwillingly or unwittingly upon a man or a woman, they can now turn that hope back upon Christ Himself. And I know that sounds very trite. It is not trite. That is exactly what is happening, it's exactly what God wants, and that is the point.

Mark: 34:37

That's the end of part one of my conversation with Pete Mahoney. Thanks for listening. The second part of this episode will be posted soon, so stay tuned. The easiest way of making sure you don't miss any of our shows is by clicking on the subscribe link provided, and we will let you know every time there is a new episode. You can find all the notes and links for today's show at our website, www.kingdomadvance ministries.com / podcasts. Bye for now, and may God bless.